Designer or Inbred? How do you pronounce it?

[vlangel]

I am all for captive bred fish, but if it were up to me I would keep the breeding to what naturally occurs in nature rather than push the boundaries of trying to get new colors and patterns. It seems to me that GOD knows best.

I have successfully raised tomato clowns and erectus seahorses and even with the advances in the hobby, the process is rigorous for the home hobbyist. I only did it once. And those species (tomato clowns and erectus seahorses) are among the easiest so I will be surprised if home hobbyists will be doing home breeding as a common place thing any time soon. I know there will be those who really take to it and will perhaps turn it into a business. For me however, to only get $5 a fish after months of pouring my heart and soul into these creatures made the prospect of a business less than attractive. Add to that that I got attached tomy babies and did not want to see them go to just anyone played into my decision not to raise more captive bred fish.

 

[Salemsoul]

1. With all that said, do you pronounce it “Designer clown” or “Inbred clown”? Why do say so?
As someone who is involved in the breeding of "designer" ball pythons and other snakes, there are 100 ways to do it wrong. But to devalue keeping and captive breeding naturally occurring traits that nature would just weed out like piebald or albino as "inbred" is unfair. Inbreeding does occur in the wild. Obviously not to the extent in captivity, but most professional breeders are very careful to outcross and add new lines to their breeding programs. Adding in new genetics thins the probability of defects and passing on less than desirable genes. But line breeding has its own issues, in people who don't kull problem animals or continue to breed defective animals. Everyone wants a slice of the pie when money is involved and it doesn't always mean things will be done ethically.

Follow up question:

2. Should captive bred tangs follow the same selective breeding process or should we leave it to the professionals?
I think the definition of professional is hard to determine, well structured breeding programs for captive breeding is really important. When things move down to a hobbyist level ethics or lack of knowledge can cause some issues. Line breeding or selective breeding happens in almost all animals, we as humans, decide to captive breed. Whether it is done in an ethic way is where we should place the question did we or have we crossed the line. Is the need to fill a hobbyist tank and make money the motive for designer breeding or is it breeding for health, temperament and then visuals.

 

[Mr_Knightley]

1. With all that said, do you pronounce it “Designer clown” or “Inbred clown”? Why do say so?
I typically prefer the wild types. A whole lot of these unique lines of clowns (take a snowflake for example) were required to be inbred to get the pattern consistent and stronger, thusly damaging the fish genetically. I've noticed a lot of super designer clowns don't have natural hosting instincts, and often don't even try to live in anything. I say if something wouldn't work in nature, I don't want it in my tank. We just no not understand clownfish genetics yet to a level where I would feel comfortable messing with them.
Another thing to keep in consideration is that there are many natural varieties of clowns! Lightning maroons, picassos, onyxes and a whole host of other appear in the wild. So I think we should be breeding more of those to enrich the captive stock in case exports ever close down.
2. Should captive bred tangs follow the same selective breeding process or should we leave it to the professionals?
I wouldn't be opposed to readily available koi tangs, no. But, I would only feel comfortable with higher level selective breeding if, by the time that is plausible, we had a better understanding of the genetics at play. No studies have been done, no papers written. So personally, until fish genetics are better understood, I say leave it to the professionals.

 

[ZipAdeeZoa]

Coming from the reptile hobby I've always thought mutations are really cool and think the fact that these oddball animals who wouldn't make it in the wild can thrive in captivity and I feel that the wider variety of colours and patterns to choose from entices more people into the hobby and in turn creates more people who care about animals, the ocean and their well being.

I feel like inbreeding although technically correct is a little harsh- lots of animals who have limited ranges and territories have evolved to deal with relatively limited genetic diversity and breeding with siblings in such instances isn't uncommon. I don't feel like we know enough about fish genetics at this point in time to definitively say inbreeding is a really bad or good thing for clownfish.

It's an interesting topic though and it's cool to see how other people feel about it.

 

[Zionas]

For Pete’s sake I don’t want to see any designer Tangs! If they’re hybrids of organic species I could be fine with that, just not hybrids like all the Clownfish.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I simply say Hybrid (a mixture of two or more)
Designer is also fitting

 

[vetteguy53081]

For Pete’s sake I don’t want to see any designer Tangs! If they’re hybrids of organic species I could be fine with that, just not hybrids like all the Clownfish.

Koi tangs don’t look all that bad

 

[Gribbliest]

I say other.

They're not exactly 'designer' as they're not 'designed'. They are selectively bred for traits.

The more we can encourage this, the more we'll see captive bred fishes, and the less will be harvested from the ocean. I for one am happy to pay the premium for a captive bred fish, the same I am happy to pay premium for aquacultured corals.

 

[chaoticreefer]

I voted inbred. I never had "designer" clowns that acted normal. Not single one would host, always stayed in the water column.

 

[Gribbliest]

I voted inbred. I never had "designer" clowns that acted normal. Not single one would host and stayed in the water column.

I've had no issue with my Mocha Storms - they host their nems happy as can be and regularly lay eggs.

 

[Aquaman11]

How do you pronounce it?

It’s always truly amazing to see advancements in this hobby. I recently came across an article about how the industry is pushing the boundaries with captive bred fish. In terms of fish breeding most of us are familiar with breeding clowns, dragonets, banggai cardinals, gobies etc. But the one true milestone is breeding tangs.

If the past is any indication it will only be a matter of time before these advancements are passed onto hobbyist. We will unlock the proper schedule to successfully breed tangs in our own homes. Before we know it, we will start to see crossbred species with never before seen color combinations that will no doubt command a huge demand by hobbyists. In turn, that will encourage many folks to transform their basement or guest rooms into a tang breeding centers. It begs the question, just because we can, should we?

Clown fish are a great example of this phenomenon. Early hobbyists were only given the choice between the traditional orange and white ocellaris or percula. Now a days, breeders and hobbyists alike are able to achieve certain looks by selectively breeding out particular traits so that we can have that beautiful designer fish. However, there’s a flipside to this coin by selectively breeding in certain positive traits you also breed in those “not so good” traits. Fish life expectancy drops, they’re more prone to disease, they don’t act like traditional clowns and of course the obvious ones like genetic defects. As that happened the philosophical question becomes how far is too far? Have we already crossed that line?

1. With all that said, do you pronounce it “Designer clown” or “Inbred clown”? Why do say so?

Follow up question:

2. Should captive bred tangs follow the same selective breeding process or should we leave it to the professionals?


Thanks again to @Sisterlimonpot for the QOTD!

How do you pronounce it?

It’s always truly amazing to see advancements in this hobby. I recently came across an article about how the industry is pushing the boundaries with captive bred fish. In terms of fish breeding most of us are familiar with breeding clowns, dragonets, banggai cardinals, gobies etc. But the one true milestone is breeding tangs.

If the past is any indication it will only be a matter of time before these advancements are passed onto hobbyist. We will unlock the proper schedule to successfully breed tangs in our own homes. Before we know it, we will start to see crossbred species with never before seen color combinations that will no doubt command a huge demand by hobbyists. In turn, that will encourage many folks to transform their basement or guest rooms into a tang breeding centers. It begs the question, just because we can, should we?

Clown fish are a great example of this phenomenon. Early hobbyists were only given the choice between the traditional orange and white ocellaris or percula. Now a days, breeders and hobbyists alike are able to achieve certain looks by selectively breeding out particular traits so that we can have that beautiful designer fish. However, there’s a flipside to this coin by selectively breeding in certain positive traits you also breed in those “not so good” traits. Fish life expectancy drops, they’re more prone to disease, they don’t act like traditional clowns and of course the obvious ones like genetic defects. As that happened the philosophical question becomes how far is too far? Have we already crossed that line?

1. With all that said, do you pronounce it “Designer clown” or “Inbred clown”? Why do say so?

Follow up question:

2. Should captive bred tangs follow the same selective breeding process or should we leave it to the professionals?


Thanks again to @Sisterlimonpot for the QOTD!

 

[Zionas]

Yeah that’s true aren’t the just a deviant version of the Scopas though? Naturally occurring?

 

[Tamberav]

We call papered dogs purebred even though they are designed to look a certain way (like our fish) and inbreeding can be found in the lines of purebred dogs.

What's the difference between many dogs lines that were inbred to enhance traits vs clowns? It seems similar to me.

 

[Kal93]

To achieve and maintain those patterns, they are inbred. I would hope that tangs don't undergo this selective breeding process (although, given the propensity for people to put tangs in too small of a tank, I am imagining tiny tangs with a Napoleon complex, similar to little dogs...)

 

[Tamberav]

I voted inbred. I never had "designer" clowns that acted normal. Not single one would host, always stayed in the water column.

Are not many of the 'normal' looking clowns just siblings of the designer ones? Like if you breed snowflakes you get so many offspring that look just like normal occys.

 

[RC79ATC]

Designer is sort of a misleading term. In mammal breeding, dogs for example, designer breeds are generally carefully selected mutts. Two different blood lines that when crossed create a pleasing look and desirable combination of traits...

In the case of clownfish, very much like ball pythons in the reptile trade, the resulting specimens can show signs of disfigurement, long term health problems and in general (from my understanding of the clownfish breeding process) are the result of breeding close relatives with desirable visible traits to exaggerate those traits or to mutate to new morphs...thus inbreeding.

Of course, I am only a hobbyist and my understanding may be flawed...though I will choose to stay away from most "designer" clowns...I like natural appearances in my tank.

Cheers!

 

[vetteguy53081]

I say other.

They're not exactly 'designer' as they're not 'designed'. They are selectively bred for traits.

The more we can encourage this, the more we'll see captive bred fishes, and the less will be harvested from the ocean. I for one am happy to pay the premium for a captive bred fish, the same I am happy to pay premium for aquacultured corals.

Like it - “ SELECTIVE BRED “

 

[vabben]

Designer. This same practice occurs in all household pets.

 

[ricksmithsdca]

How do you pronounce it?

It’s always truly amazing to see advancements in this hobby. I recently came across an article about how the industry is pushing the boundaries with captive bred fish. In terms of fish breeding most of us are familiar with breeding clowns, dragonets, banggai cardinals, gobies etc. But the one true milestone is breeding tangs.

If the past is any indication it will only be a matter of time before these advancements are passed onto hobbyist. We will unlock the proper schedule to successfully breed tangs in our own homes. Before we know it, we will start to see crossbred species with never before seen color combinations that will no doubt command a huge demand by hobbyists. In turn, that will encourage many folks to transform their basement or guest rooms into a tang breeding centers. It begs the question, just because we can, should we?

Clown fish are a great example of this phenomenon. Early hobbyists were only given the choice between the traditional orange and white ocellaris or percula. Now a days, breeders and hobbyists alike are able to achieve certain looks by selectively breeding out particular traits so that we can have that beautiful designer fish. However, there’s a flipside to this coin by selectively breeding in certain positive traits you also breed in those “not so good” traits. Fish life expectancy drops, they’re more prone to disease, they don’t act like traditional clowns and of course the obvious ones like genetic defects. As that happened the philosophical question becomes how far is too far? Have we already crossed that line?

1. With all that said, do you pronounce it “Designer clown” or “Inbred clown”? Why do say so?

Follow up question:

2. Should captive bred tangs follow the same selective breeding process or should we leave it to the professionals?


Thanks again to @Sisterlimonpot for the QOTD!

I believe it depends on the breeder and their habits. You can have "designer" clownfish without inbreeding. And you can have inbred clownfish that are considered "designer." The struggle with getting designer clownfish without inbreeding is finding fish with further lineage that are exhibiting the traits the breeder is looking for in the fish. However, it can and has been done in the past.

Of course, we could remove the fish type and see the same thing across the board. Look what has happened to the guppy industry over the years. It's difficult to find healthy fancy tail guppies because breeders rush to breed them with similar. Of course, the easiest and quickest way for that to happen is with the guppy's siblings that are exhibiting the same tail colors.

Now, personally, I believe that if you can create a designer fish with strong genetics, only then should you be able to charge the "designer" pricing. Just because I leave a bunch of my fry in the same tank and they start having more fry with unusually color patters, does not make them designer.

Okay, I think I might upset people with this answer but it's common genetics that when two living creatures with closely related (or identically parents) are mated, the likelihood of genetic abnormalities drastically goes up which can weaken the genetic material and ultimately the offspring.

 

[JLynn]

I think it depends entirely on how it's done. You could produce all these types without inbreeding, if you did the work to maintain a large enough population of separate bloodlines to do so. I doubt any hobbyist breeder has enough time, energy, space, or money to maintain such a large operation, so the fish from a hobbyist breeder are more likely to be inbred (even if they are the wild-type!). A big producer like ORA, Sea & Reef, etc could definitely manage that if they were organized enough about it.

It doesn't help that it's harder to spot genetic defects like overbites (which I've seen CB clowns accused of) in a small fish than it is to spot them in a dog or a cat, which you can keep still long enough to get a good look at.

But for tangs... for one thing, there's no guarantee that they have the genes to get such a broad variety of patterns (which is what lead to the craze with clownfish). Not all fish do. If you look to the freshwater side of things, almost all of their fish are captive bred. You only see the "designer" thing happening with a select few species that have the genetic capability to produce a broad variety of colors and patterns: koi, goldfish, betta fish, mollies, guppies, and cichlids are the main culprits, as far as I know. (And I don't think koi have any notable health problems related to inbreeding. Japanese koi breeders seem to be extremely on top of that sort of thing. Perhaps the patience and restraining influence of the Japanese culture?) There are all these other species of fish, all the tetras and danios and plecos and so on, that don't get crazy patterns or colors, and therefore aren't bred in the same way.

I hesitate to suggest that hobbyist breeding ought to be discouraged, because the work of a small number of dedicated hobbyist breeders did a lot to advance the captive breeding success of clownfish, in those early days. I would love to see Tangs become as easy to breed as clownfish are, someday! Tangs are one of the most popular groups of fish, and widespread captive breeding would definitely reduce whatever strain our current uptake of them creates.

And while clowns have gotten crazy, I'd like to point out that seahorses, another group of fish who are captive bred a great deal, on both a professional and hobbyist level, do not seem to have the same problems. So it can be done well.