Desorbing phosphate from sand with lanthanum.

[Miami Reef]

I’m just wondering:

Lanthanum can bind directly to calcium carbonate to form lanthanum carbonate. Can it also bind to aragonite?

Lanthanum phosphate can bind to the surface of the sand. Could soluble lanthanum or particulate lanthanum become released from the sand/GFO upon adding back to the tank?

To elaborate: I’m assuming the lanthanum will stick to the carbonate surface of the sand. If it releases, what form is likely getting released?

I’m trying to see if we can narrow down the potential causes of lanthanum related fish deaths. Maybe this can help us answer questions in the future?

This is just fun brainstorming for me. I have no incentive to bash or condone a specific method. I’m just brainstorming for recreational use.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I'm trying to cement my name in reefing history, perhaps even develope a new science, lol

You need an acronym so we can easily refer to it. How about GCCM?

 

[Dan_P]

You don't like GFO? Lol.

It's really very simple.

1) Get a mesh bag and fill it with sand (the more the merrier).
2) Place the bag into a bucket with enough fresh RODI water to fully submerge it, with a tiny circulation pump.
3) Add an amount of lanthanum chloride (I'm using 20 MLS of a solution comprised 10 grammes lanthanum chloride in 500 mls RODI)
4) Allow to regenerate for 3 days (or more).
5) Agitate the bag to remove sludge and remove from bucket, pronto.
6) Rinse in RODI.
7) Allow to drain and put into sump/tank (location appears unimportant)
8) Leave in tank for 3 days or more.
9) Remove from tank and rinse in hot tapwater, let it drain, then repeat from number 2) onwards.

We use 2 bags so that 1 is in the tank whilst the other is in the regeneration bucket. It appears to be a lot of steps but it's very simple really.

I'll add a pic of the wife's regeneration bucket, lol

You probably have this entire process optimize, but wondering if you tried a finer version of aragonite sand? It might be less straightforward to flow water through it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I’m just wondering:

Lanthanum can bind directly to calcium carbonate to form lanthanum carbonate. Can it also bind to aragonite?

Lanthanum phosphate can bind to the surface of the sand. Could soluble lanthanum or particulate lanthanum become released from the sand/GFO upon adding back to the tank?

To elaborate: I’m assuming the lanthanum will stick to the carbonate surface of the sand. If it releases, what form is likely getting released?

I’m trying to see if we can narrow down the potential causes of lanthanum related fish deaths. Maybe this can help us answer questions in the future?

This is just fun brainstorming for me. I have no incentive to bash or condone a specific method. I’m just brainstorming for recreational use.

Yes, lanthanum can attach to and likely be incorporated a bit into calcium carbonate and aragonite. It will locally mess up the crystal structure, however.

 

[Garf]

wondering if you tried a finer version of aragonite sand

Didn't get around to that, thinking about buying a mesh bag to contain the small sand particles brings me out in hives.To be honest I've got a sump that just aerates and warms the water, so space is not a limiting factor.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I’m just wondering:

Lanthanum can bind directly to calcium carbonate to form lanthanum carbonate. Can it also bind to aragonite?

Lanthanum phosphate can bind to the surface of the sand. Could soluble lanthanum or particulate lanthanum become released from the sand/GFO upon adding back to the tank?

To elaborate: I’m assuming the lanthanum will stick to the carbonate surface of the sand. If it releases, what form is likely getting released?

I’m trying to see if we can narrow down the potential causes of lanthanum related fish deaths. Maybe this can help us answer questions in the future?

This is just fun brainstorming for me. I have no incentive to bash or condone a specific method. I’m just brainstorming for recreational use.

Yes, lanthanum can attach to and likely be incorporated a bit into calcium carbonate and aragonite. It will locally mess up the crystal structure, however.

 

[Miami Reef]

You need an acronym so we can easily refer to it.

Sounds familiar…

“I'm going to propose a method, let's call it the Randy Magnesium Method, or RMM for short. All good methods need a catchy name.”

Yes, lanthanum can attach to and likely be incorporated a bit into calcium carbonate and aragonite. It will locally mess up the crystal structure, however.

Yes, but can particulate lanthanum release from the crystal structure? What about soluble lanthanum?

 

[Miami Reef]

What does GCCM stand for, anyway?

 

[Garf]

You need an acronym so we can easily refer to it. How about GCCM?

I'm guessing I know what that stands for but as I think my carbon dosing is also removing nitrates via bacteria in the sand rinsing also, I was thinking Garfs Inorganics Terminator, lol

I would add that I fully expect somebody else has done this method to a tank, they've certainly done a version of it to de-phosphate old rocks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Sounds familiar…

“I'm going to propose a method, let's call it the Randy Magnesium Method, or RMM for short. All good methods need a catchy name.”




Yes, but can particulate lanthanum release from the crystal structure? What about soluble lanthanum?

Soluble lanthanum will be in an on off equilibrium, but I’m not sure about the details of how much in solution means how much in the aragonite. Particulates of lanthanum won’t really bind. Imagine a bowling ball on a bowling alley. The tiny area of contact is not enough to hold it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I would add that I fully expect somebody else has done this method to a tank, they've certainly done a version of it to de-phosphate old rocks.

Doesn’t matter. People have short memories. lol

 

[Miami Reef]

Soluble lanthanum will be in an on off equilibrium, but I’m not sure about the details of how much in solution means how much in the aragonite. Particulates of lanthanum won’t really bind. Imagine a bowling ball on a bowling alley. The tiny area of contact is not enough to hold it.

That’s interesting.

I thought the phosphate stuck to the sand like a sticker on a ball. I assumed some of the lanthanum will stick to the phosphate that is stuck to the sand. Then I thought the lanthanum phosphate would just flake off back into the tank on a whim.

 

[Dan_P]

Yes, lanthanum can attach to and likely be incorporated a bit into calcium carbonate and aragonite. It will locally mess up the crystal structure, however.

What about the formation of lanthanum carbonate as a way attach it to aragonite?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

That’s interesting.

I thought the phosphate stuck to the sand like a sticker on a ball. I assumed some of the lanthanum will stick to the phosphate that is stuck to the sand. Then I thought the lanthanum phosphate would just flake off back into the tank on a whim.

The calcium and carbonate makes a regular repeating structural lattice. On the surface, both are exposed, and lanthanum can bind to an exposed carbonate, and phosphate will stick to exposed calcium. Many other things are sticking too (magnesium, organics, etc). It ends up being a hodge judge in the surface.

 

[Garf]

To add context, I'll throw up a pic of the wife's tank;

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

What does GCCM stand for, anyway?

Garfs Calcium Carbonate Method.

 

[Miami Reef]

Garfs Calcium Carbonate Method.

Thanks. I like that.

 

[Garf]

Thanks. I like that.

LOL. This method has a data set of 2 tanks. I won't be phoning the bank manager for a loan against the millions I'm gonna get in Royalties quite yet

 

[Miami Reef]

LOL. This method has a data set of 2 tanks. I won't be phoning the bank manager for a loan against the millions I'm gonna get in loyalties quite yet

I personally never had a fish issue with dosing lanthanum directly into the tank, but I’ve completely stopped all lanthanum dosing. I think I’ll try regenerating my GFO with lanthanum and seeing how it preforms for fun. It would be interesting to try it out.

I don’t want lanthanum binding/poisoning the perfect calcium and carbonate lattice site with a “hodgepodge” of lanthanum amongst other things. That was always one of my concerns with dosing it. I think there were studies of lanthanum getting into human bones and maybe more likely to cause GI upset, which is why I think Renagel was able to outcompete the lanthanum-human-phosphate-remover competitor.

Doesn’t matter. People have short memories. lol

 

[gbroadbridge]

To add context, I'll throw up a pic of the wife's tank;

Wife's Tank. lol