Desperate plea for help.

[MnFish1]

I did want to thank everyone that has given constructive feedback and helping me figure somethings out. It is very much appreciated. I do not think we haven't covered just about everything, and we are pretty much in a standstill with the tank until I get my dkh and calcium back down around 8.5 - 9 and 450's. From there we will start over and find out a suitable course of action to take going forward. Hopefully in the next couple of weeks things will start settling down in the tank, and more loss can be prevented, though I saw PC Rainbow looking dreadful this morning, so may take that loss as well. I hate killing corals, it makes me sick to my stomach. I know it is all learning, but that is not how I see it. It also maybe where I take an account of the tank and wonder if I should move forward with SPS or to step back. I think as long as I have the right process instituted, I will be ok. I love having a mixed reef, I find the joy in keeping all kinds of corals that I personally love, and I would like to stay on that track. Difficult to maintain or not, if I can manage the elements and parameters better I should be successful. I just need to Implement something that is easier for me. Thanks again everyone will continue to monitor this post. I really got some good insight everyone...

I have to say reading the thread, I'm totally confused with where things are now. So I'm going to give you a couple general comments. 1. Your tank looks fine. 2. You overdosed your CA/Alk (with the kalk) - and this may be part of the cloudy water people have noticed. 3. Even a 100% water change should not cause a re-cycle. 4. There are sites which have calculators which can tell you how much to dose (or how much water to change) to add or remove Ca, etc. 5. Unless you have your Radions set very low, (or you were measuring PAR at the bottom of the tank) - I'm not sure I believe the PAR levels you have. If you look at my build thread my PAR is approx 700 at the top of the water. 6. I think it's extremely important to step back and pause a bit. Perhaps stop buying new things and changing multiple things at once (which is exactly the plan you outlined above). 7. The tank (to me) is a bit small - and I wonder if its possible that besides the chemistry fluctuations, could you also have some coral competition/stinging going on - and sometimes activated carbon (high quality) can remove some of these. 8. It's pretty common to experience what you're experiencing, which is that it's extremely difficult to keep multiple different types of coral/fish from different areas in the same tank. I would not give up on keeping a mixed reef, but realize that in many cases, when you see a perfect tank picture - the 'stuff' in the tank has evolved to live together with the other inhabitants - as well as the chemistries in the tank. Some people have kept nitrates>100 ppm - and succeeded with certain types of coral, but not all, etc etc. I would attempt to avoid the newest supplement/device/etc. You're doing a good job - but maybe trying to overcomplicate things a little? Hope this helps, don't be discouraged - and these are just my experiences - not trying to take away from anyone else's advice.

 

[Rappa]

I have a newer large tank and I am attempting a mixed reef as well. My tank has been running for a year now. I started with Marco, Life Rock, and 60lbs of live rock from my old system that I put in my sump. A friend gave me bio-brick from his well established system. I was on a real good run and had a great start! My tank looked phenomenal! I had thriving fish, a few high end torch corals, zoas, and some misc SPS. I also had some Monti caps glued to my overflow growing out nicely. It seemed like I had skipped the "ugly phase" and the tank was looking unreal. I am using two 7" filter socks in my large sump, a refugium with cheato, a large skimmer, and dosing BRS calcium and Alk. My lights are 3 XR30's and I was running them real high at 80% using AB+. Apex Pro system [email protected], calcium@450, [email protected]. I swear this tank was doing great. I started dosing Brightwell Coral Aminos at this time (thinking "Why not?"). All of a sudden, Nitrates were low, and phosphates went real high. I didn't know if it was the aminos i was dosing, or if the new rock leached out phosphates? I was told to "just feed heavier and use Reef Roids heavy to get NO3 up". I swear to God, the first time I used the Roids, all my SPS slimed up super-heavy, and never looked the same after. Then over the next few weeks, every single one of them started turning brown. All SPS slowly died off with them turning brown and ultimately green hair algae growing on them. Then I used GFO to get PO4 down, and started dosing Nitrates... Nitrates wouldn't come up so then started carbon dosing... all chasing this problem that I probably started. I bottomed out the phos, so I started dosing Red Sea AB+. I ended up with a tank full of cyanno and hair algae totally out of control, torches were shedding heads, all SPS dead etc.... Even my coraline algae died off. I also got ich in my tank at this time. Total disaster! I decided to start over and removed all my fish for a 90 day fallow period. After many months, and many manual 8 hour GHA removal sessions, I slowly got it back under control. Fish went back in and slowly added some new corals. I am keeping my dosing basic, not dosing anything other than cal, alk, mag. Things are doing much better and I'm getting colorful growth on SPS again. I will not chase numbers like I was before. Green hair algae is 75% under control (removal sessions only take an hour or two every few weeks). I think sometimes or many times, we add products that are totally unnecessary. Then we start going after things that we are told need to be at a certain number, and the chase begins! I haven't added any aminos, reef roids, gonnipower, bacteria supplements, AB+, carbon dosing, etc... and eveything is doing great as of this monent. Last ICP test a few weeks ago said everything was great except Iodine and Strongtium were on the low level. Easy fix... I'm trying to keep it simple for now, and it's working. My last 20 year old tank was LPS and softies, I didn't dose anything at all, maybe 3-4 water changes a year, and it did great until I got lazy and allowed mojano anemonies to take it over. I think we need to remind ourselves to keep it simple and try not to do too many things at once.

 

[kingranch2003]

So I would reduce the complexity by far. A good bet would be to do a large water change, reduce light intensity by a lot, and do weekly water changes until you start seeing a demand. Keep your tank flow as high as it can be without moving stuff out of place and only use a skimmer for nutrient export. At this point I wouldn’t be worried about nutrients, ph, or manipulating water chemistry. Once you see your calcium and alkalinity dropping regularly and you are noticing growth, then add 2 part. You can gradually add light intensity once you start seeing things stabilize. I feel like you got so much stuff happening that is unnecessary if corals aren’t growing. Cut everything out to get a very simple system, and only add things that are needed to fix an actual problem.

This is the kind of advice that makes a difference for us new guys. I'm not the OP but I really appreciate this comment.

 

[kingranch2003]

After not reading your post, and watching your video (lol) - your tank looks great! I guess I don't understand the problem?? Congratulations on a beautiful reef aquarium. Keep up the good work!

That understanding would require all of the reading you left out.

 

[Sump Crab]

That understanding would require all of the reading you left out.

Quite the insight here lol!

 

[Dburr1014]

Well, I read the first page.

I have thoughts and apologies if they were asked. I'm on my way out of work and waiting for the bell to ring.

1) par is plenty
2) that mag at 1600,if real, don't worry to much. I've had it higher.
3) how you measure sg? Is it calibrated? How? Lots of times it reads higher and all your results are higher cuz you think it's correct.
4) how often do you do water changes? 10-20% a month is plenty and better to spread them out.
5) you run GAC? Need to if not, coral warfare is a real thing in mixed tanks.

Got to go, good luck.

 

[dolpator]

Well, I read the first page.

I have thoughts and apologies if they were asked. I'm on my way out of work and waiting for the bell to ring.

1) par is plenty
2) that mag at 1600,if real, don't worry to much. I've had it higher.
3) how you measure sg? Is it calibrated? How? Lots of times it reads higher and all your results are higher cuz you think it's correct.
4) how often do you do water changes? 10-20% a month is plenty and better to spread them out.
5) you run GAC? Need to if not, coral warfare is a real thing in mixed tanks.

Got to go, good luck.

Good Day, Mag, I have no idea how it got so high. I wasn't worried to much about it, I did stop dosing it altogether, and pretty much removed it from the dosing container, and will manually dose it for now on when it gets below 1400. I use the Hanna Salinity Probe, and it was calibrated a month ago, and also calibrated again when all this started showing up. I usually do monthy water changes, it was 20-25 gallons. This past time because of all the mess I did a 30 gallon. Reefers said that it was way to much for such a small tank. I am going to take the advice of doing 5-10 gallon water changes weekly/biweekly, just because I think it would be easier on my body. I was not running GAC. I fell into the bad information trap on that one with regard to SPS corals and HLLE. I have since read that all of this has been debunked, and have ordered some Rox Carbon. I only have a short little media reactor that I can place this in. Also a fellow reefer said that I should order some Blue Life Clear FX Pro that I could place in a media cup in place of a filter sock, and run this to help remove whatever is going on.

Everyone that is following along. Today, the tank is really cloudy. I have accounted for all the fish, so I am not 100% sure where the cloudiness is coming from. More investigation is in order. Could be a bacterial bloom which I have never dealt with before so if anyone has any insight on this I would love to hear about it. My tank has never been this cloudy before so I am slightly worried.... Not out of the woods yet. I know we are letting things settle down, this is just really hard....So sad

 

[twentyleagues]

I dont know if hlle and carbon were debunked. I believe this is still thought to be a possible cause.
Increase aeration if it is a bacterial bloom.

 

[Dburr1014]

Good Day, Mag, I have no idea how it got so high. I wasn't worried to much about it, I did stop dosing it altogether, and pretty much removed it from the dosing container, and will manually dose it for now on when it gets below 1400. I use the Hanna Salinity Probe, and it was calibrated a month ago, and also calibrated again when all this started showing up. I usually do monthy water changes, it was 20-25 gallons. This past time because of all the mess I did a 30 gallon. Reefers said that it was way to much for such a small tank. I am going to take the advice of doing 5-10 gallon water changes weekly/biweekly, just because I think it would be easier on my body. I was not running GAC. I fell into the bad information trap on that one with regard to SPS corals and HLLE. I have since read that all of this has been debunked, and have ordered some Rox Carbon. I only have a short little media reactor that I can place this in. Also a fellow reefer said that I should order some Blue Life Clear FX Pro that I could place in a media cup in place of a filter sock, and run this to help remove whatever is going on.

Everyone that is following along. Today, the tank is really cloudy. I have accounted for all the fish, so I am not 100% sure where the cloudiness is coming from. More investigation is in order. Could be a bacterial bloom which I have never dealt with before so if anyone has any insight on this I would love to hear about it. My tank has never been this cloudy before so I am slightly worried.... Not out of the woods yet. I know we are letting things settle down, this is just really hard....So sad

I dont know if hlle and carbon were debunked. I believe this is still thought to be a possible cause.
Increase aeration if it is a bacterial bloom.

True, I run carbon when needed.
For a mixed reef with tangs, imo, 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off is a good place to start. Figure it out from there.

Tank pic of the cloud? Yes, get lots of air in there. Bac sucks up O2.

 

[MnFish1]

I dont know if hlle and carbon were debunked. I believe this is still thought to be a possible cause.
Increase aeration if it is a bacterial bloom.

Jay Hemdal has an article posted about HLLE and carbon. Not all carbons are associated with HLLE.

 

[dolpator]

Well lost three more Acros today. It's been a somber g day for me. Just when I think I have everything figured out the reefing hobby slaps me back down to earth and says nope not yet. I will continue to move forward from here. It is all I can do. Lost about $750 in corals already because of this crap. Back to the drawing board.

 

[cooltowncorals]

Well, I’ve read the whole thing and honestly I’m a little confused.

I would say, in a mixed reef you will have corals die, it’s part of trying to have a bunch of things that like different things. But if you hold your tank steady you will see what works. Specifically from coral warfare.

I run carbon on my mixed reef mostly because I have some softies, there are softies that emit chemicals to kill corals near them.

I also would side with a few other posts here that would say slow down and be patient.

1. I prefer small water changes I run daily with a hydros, I feel like my tank does better with them. Big water changes can really swing your parameters.

2. Don’t bounce around on salt mixes, lots of antidotal posts around where changing salts caused problems. Brs has recommendations for how to switch salts.

3. when trying to decide perfect parameters I always suggest trying to match the salt you buy or close to it. If not matching to salt Parameters then do actual ocean water.

4. Get some ocean bacteria in your tank.

5 reef crystals and salts with similar levels are for people running 20 gallon tanks and doing 2 gallon water changes weekly who don’t want to monitor or dose in their tanks. So the super high levels help make up for weekly loss. Since you dose and test parameters consider a salt with levels of alk and calcium you want to run.

6 stable temp, specific gravity, alk, calcium and to some degree magnesium are most important.

7. For growth high PH is most important of you over 8.0 your fine, if your under you just grow slower

8 you will notice most people who have done this for along time successfully talk about stability (not making any changes) picking a path and staying with it. I would say most corals I’ve added to my tank over the years do nothing for 1-3 months then start growing and then grow to where I have to start removing or trimming them because they are running into other corals.

My point here being when they switch tanks from another reefer or from a dealer they don’t grow for 1-3 months. When you change things that affect your main parameters (#6 above) it’s like moving your coral to a new tank.

You wouldn’t plant a bush and then dig it up every week and plant it in a new location.

Been reefing for 15 years.

 

[Pod_01]

Just few suggestions:

I was not running GAC. I fell into the bad information trap on that one with regard to SPS corals and HLLE. I have since read that all of this has been debunked, and have ordered some Rox Carbon.

I have mixed reef and I recommend GAC but I only use 2 tablespoons per 60 gal and change it once every 4 weeks. From my experience too much can stress SPS corals.
I never had good experience with GFO and SPS, people can make it work but I believe you need have experience with SPS to know when to stop using it etc… I think it is not for beginners.
On the filtration side I only use Skimmer and GAC as mentioned. I have no fuge, fleece, socks etc… I try to stick to the KISS principle, corals after all are the best filter.
I also dose a little bit of NP Bacto Ballance 0.2 ml a day just to feed the bacteria that hopefully feeds the corals.

Unfortunately with SPS you will have losses, at the start it is like burning money at a fire pit.
Eventually some will survive so I would start with the cheaper ones. Cheaper means they are easier to grow not that they are not nice.

Try some easy plating montiporas:

Once they grow move on to the finicky acro corals:

Good luck,

 

[twentyleagues]

Jay Hemdal has an article posted about HLLE and carbon. Not all carbons are associated with HLLE.

True. Seems the dustier versions or if you tumble it and it breaks down. If I use carbon (I have not in a long time) I get the better pelletized versions and run it very low flow.

 

[Beefyreefy]

Just a thought, I don’t know if anyone mentioned it, but have you checked for stray voltage? My only crash I’ve ever had was due to a frayed wave maker power cord. I think it was causing slight issues for a while that culminated in a moderate (up to 50% loss of coral) acute event. The months leading to the acute event showed slowing and stopping of coral growth with sporadic loss, ending in a 5 day cloudy water death march in my main tank. So if you haven’t, I’d check for stray voltage or if you get the that ICP back, elevated metals.

 

[dolpator]

Just a thought, I don’t know if anyone mentioned it, but have you checked for stray voltage? My only crash I’ve ever had was due to a frayed wave maker power cord. I think it was causing slight issues for a while that culminated in a moderate (up to 50% loss of coral) acute event. The months leading to the acute event showed slowing and stopping of coral growth with sporadic loss, ending in a 5 day cloudy water death march in my main tank. So if you haven’t, I’d check for stray voltage or if you get the that ICP back, elevated metals.

I did check for it. We are clear. No stray voltage. I also use a grounding plug in the tank.

 

[dolpator]

I wanted to give everyone a quick update. The tank has stopped doing it's whatever it was doing. There hasn't been anymore loss since Thursday. N03 has been steady around 5ppm, phosphates gave been around. .05. Ph has improved to 8.3. Alk is currently sitting at 9.5 and Calcium is at 480. Mag is under 1550. We are still not disi g anything until alk lowers to 8. Things are looking up, and what is left in the tank has improved considerably. We have added GAC and Blue Life Clear FX as per group recommendations. Will keep group updated as things progress

 

[cooltowncorals]

Great to hear.

I would consider watching how tank reacts when you remove carbon as that may be what helped.

 

[MnFish1]

I wanted to give everyone a quick update. The tank has stopped doing it's whatever it was doing. There hasn't been anymore loss since Thursday. N03 has been steady around 5ppm, phosphates gave been around. .05. Ph has improved to 8.3. Alk is currently sitting at 9.5 and Calcium is at 480. Mag is under 1550. We are still not disi g anything until alk lowers to 8. Things are looking up, and what is left in the tank has improved considerably. We have added GAC and Blue Life Clear FX as per group recommendations. Will keep group updated as things progress

My editorial comment - I do not believe that you need to remove and add carbon - you can run it continuously

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I wanted to give everyone a quick update. The tank has stopped doing it's whatever it was doing. There hasn't been anymore loss since Thursday. N03 has been steady around 5ppm, phosphates gave been around. .05. Ph has improved to 8.3. Alk is currently sitting at 9.5 and Calcium is at 480. Mag is under 1550. We are still not disi g anything until alk lowers to 8. Things are looking up,

While I expect it has nothing to do with your coral issues, I'd personally stop measuring magnesium. Too much error to be useful.

I recommend dosing it at 1/10th of the calcium dose.

Just say NO to magnesium testing: RMM is born

OK, this thread has been many years in the making, and I'm posting it here since folks in the chem forum are probably already tired of all the threads relating to problematic magnesium testing. I'm going to propose a method, let's call it the Randy Magnesium Method, or RMM for short. All good...

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