Detritus is it as bad as some make out?

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the ocean distributes its detritus into oligotrophic and eutrophic systems depending on flow/location/terrestrial relations/myriad other factors and everywhere in between. dilution as well. its gold on the real reef agreed, something can always use it.

I like to mimic the fringing reef/higher flow and action zone, hardly any detritus.

the calmer areas/ lagoons / dsb locations might favor plants and their associates better
 
I like to mimic the fringing reef/higher flow and action zone, hardly any detritus.

I don't know, but there are still a lot of non photosynthetic corals, sponges and other filtrating organisms in that zone. So there have to be some particles/food source in the water.
Maybe a bit off topic, but anyway. Dived in the Red Sea in May, watched Dendronephthya soft corals grow next to Acropora colonies. In a dream world I've really like a tank like that. Probably would need a well planned system a bit bigger than the usual sump/refugium setup, but still :)
 
I don't know, but there are still a lot of non photosynthetic corals, sponges and other filtrating organisms in that zone. So there have to be some particles/food source in the water.
Maybe a bit off topic, but anyway. Dived in the Red Sea in May, watched Dendronephthya soft corals grow next to Acropora colonies. In a dream world I've really like a tank like that. Probably would need a well planned system a bit bigger than the usual sump/refugium setup, but still :)

Any pictures? For certain, the Red Sea has fantastic filter feeders with many NPS. Something hypnotic about the too & fro ebb with those gorgeous corals.

PSS. Ten months ago, I received a gorgeous Chilli Coral which I acclimated into my 25 year old 75G Jaubert Plenum with 30G EcoSystem mud/macro refugium. Due to complications, I thought he was lost due to high particulates in water column. While sea apple loved it, Chilli suffered quickly in display tank. Because I could not duplicate a better environment for him, Chilli went into 30G cryptic refugium 8 months ago. He looks better than when I first put him in the “cryptic zone”.

https://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=597+600+2980&pcatid=2980
 
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settled detritus, well said
 
It boggles my mind to see so many people suggesting that filth, rot, decay, detritus......., are somehow healthy environmental factors for higher forms of life, like those with brains and nervous systems, or those that evolved in very clean and nutrient poor environments.
I grew up in a house where my mother kept the bathroom clean, the kitchen clean, and washed the dishes. Why wash dishes if detritus, rot, and filth, are good things? Just leave last weeks rotting chicken skin on that plate. It will be fine............ I'm sure no one could get sick, right?????

No one is talking about filth, rot and decay. We are talking about bacteria and if you read this months National Geographic there is an article about the trillions of bacteria, viruses and pathogens in our healthy digestive tract that are there to keep us healthy and immune because without them, we would croak. But what do I or the guy who writes for National Geographic know?
 
Detritus supports trillions of competing bad bacteria when it's locked in a normal sandbed, ie every sandbed here just not yours/yours is aerated much better and pathogens seek the other zone where h sulfide is present as a tank killer in many documented cases. Yours still fosters oxygen-competing bacteria on the non smelly detritus, its just been established thats a legit food source adjunct for the other stuff you feed if someone wants to add it.

Gotta upvote elegance from the housecleaning perspective.


It's my offer /guessumption after working with bacteria for a living for a while in the past that the collective loading microbially from a classic sandbed outpaces oxygen command of all the fish totaled, detritus loading has a measurable impact depending on location, duration of buildup and other factors, am only saying it becomes a risk somewhere on the continuum though it doesn't start that way. There is no continuum for cleaning, I like how it can't be overdone when the ordered steps are ran. I know Scott works in a lab too and we disagreed over BOD impact but that's my stance based on what I saw.

its still testable by the way, why doesn't someone here run a dredge test, drum up your deepest best feedmud, decant it into a cup of pure concentration, let sit for 5 days stir it twice a day or even better aerate bubble it, then give us nitrate readings starting at day 3 post the uptrending


test your skimmate just the same, day 1 nitrate test vs day 5 after stirring. mini bod assessments (o2 is inferred not directly tested here though that's avail for reefing too_) make the samples concentrated, decant multiple samples by pouring off the topwater after timesettling, then mix the finals together for the test.

You guys have the ability to measure the collective nutrient contributions of detritus and it'll show trending if the samples are concentrated, to mimic the effects of time and compounding.

every cleaning interval is more months added to lifetime, do a thousand of them, that's a thousand biological lifepan increments + hedging against all the unpredictable things that happens to old reefs over the years.

On that same note, same amount of sand but clean grains or partially loaded grains is measurably, impactfully less oxygen commands. This is garnered from many BOD samples ran from pig and cow wastewater plant work late 90s. The legal limits of poo sets the rate at which your line can produce, # carcasses per hour, so packing in maximum possible waste to a water table was what I focused on intently. Each sample literally had altered amounts of organic loading mixed into the sample so we could tell how certain parameters changed over time:

nitrate

oxygen

co2

methane

other gases

oxygen commanding bacteria

pathogens

nitrifiers

aerobes general

all the goodies we have to make offsets for when detritus is aged, and packed up, in the non aerated common reef tank sandbed.

We are getting a lot more than just helpful carbon with every ounce of poo, for sure.

In any power outage prone area, a high detritus balance can kill while all along little Mason jars packed with lps and sps and only clean grains can sit still probably two or three weeks straight, due to not farming competition.

still agree that perfectly running tanks on detritus are fine, they're just totally weak compared to a mason jar reef under any form of stress and that irony is awesome, rule makers would've said more gallonage was safer. no, the clean condition is safer if any form of stress is expected where the reef sits.

I used to work in a four acre lake of detritus sludge, what wafts around a reef tank seems tame but only if one isn't having to access its depths for one reason or another. It is great feed, substrate for diverse animals, when kept in balance by location/stratification if any and dilution + other offsets. just riffing on the bacteria part, its a fact. Detritus is collective bioloading just as a fish swims around as bioload/id rather be entertained by the items that tax my system and keep the feed in the freezer but that's just my way.
 
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This is not a discussion about detritus or not detritus in a saltwater aquarium - this is a discussion how to react to biological and ecological issues in the whole society. You can either chose to work together and along natural principles or try to fight against it with always creating new problems along the way. To solve this totally different approaches of ecological questions seems to be impossible as the situation is today.

Let us pick up one statement that I react a lot on

Detritus in the sand bed (especially in environment of low oxygen content) will create NO3 - nitrate. That´s not true - if something at all happens with NO3 in low oxygen or no oxygen environment - it is the opposite - it disappear in form of N2 gas or will be transformed to NH3/NH4. Further - in a environment with a lot of detritus there is a lot of particulate organic carbon (particulate BOD in form of POC) that will work against any forming of NO3. This is well known scientific facts.

Detritus and detritus rich sand beds do not create high NO3 levels by them self - there is other biological processes that create NO3 - not the breakdown of organic matter - in reality an environment that support a fast breakdown of organic matter counteract the production of nitrate. Instead, an aerobic environment poor in organic matter (both in the form of particulate or dissolved organic carbon) accelerates the formation of NO3. Especially in environments with high alkalinity like saltwater.

Sincerely Lasse
 
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Most people in this hobby feel they have to battle something. If I wanted to battle I would tell my wife she looks fat in those shorts. I prefer to use the materials in my reef to my advantage. I love algae as it is the best water purifier, I just don't want it growing where I can see it and I love parasites as I see them as a way to make my fish immune from just about everything and I really love detritus which slows down the flow through my gravel allowing different strains of bacteria and worms to grow. Of course my reverse UG filter hides it just where I want it and it does just what I want it to do.

There is a reason those of us with very old tanks still have very old tanks. We are not tweekers or ballet dancers. :confused:
 
Talking of not changing that much, the rock work in this tank has been the same since 2005. And most of the fish as well. Sometimes I vacuum the sand, about once a year, but that's just maybe 10% of the bottom surface. The rest is untouched, at least by me.
We usually have one or two power cuts a year(5-10 hours). Haven't seen any negative effects yet.
Nitrate 10-20 ppm and phosphate around 0,04 ppm.
We had a couple of large Acropora colonies in this tank, we've moved them so they could continue growing large. They are replaced by some smaller ones now.
We do very little water changes in this system. Just when we vacuum the sand or if something breakes(a UV filter broke and almost half the tank emptied this spring). We run Triton ICP tests and things are looking okey IMO.

I don't like to change something that works well. I do like to work with the water parameters. So if I can hold NO3 and PO4 at those levels or lower is this tank going to crash by OTS at some point @brandon429? None of us have the answer but I would like to hear your thoughts. And @Lasse s. My idea is if you manage to export more than you're importing, even your detritus bed could be stripped of nutrients. Or not?! I'm all up for discussion, I don't have the answer :)

Oh, and btw, the bleached Acropora is because of me. Ongoing heat wave, forgot to turn the left light on for a couple of days..

IMG_5988.JPG
 
No ots due to no dsb

Safe ratios stand out to me there.

You are set man, it’s beautiful and I’m coralline jealous.
 
My idea is if you manage to export more than you're importing, even your detritus bed could be stripped of nutrients. Or not?

Yes - my whole system is stripped of NO3 and PO4 and can´t by itself build up even a low nutrient concentration (NO3 and PO4 in this case) in the water column. I have to add both NO3 and PO4 - otherwise zero readings.

Everybody talks about the build up of nutrients - no one talks about how the nutrients enter the system. With except for some rare occasions - The bio load we put into the aquaria (food, fish, other animals and corals) is the only one that can be transformed to excess nutrients. Most import is feeding. Very few know that 100 grams dry food and 100 grams wet food (fresh or frozen) give different levels of N and P. 100 grams of dry food (of good quality) content around 4-6 times more P and N compared with 100 grams of wet food. The biomass will probably grow more with dry food but it is not always the truth.

Sincerely Lasse
 
No ots due to no dsb

Safe ratios stand out to me there.

You are set man, it’s beautiful and I’m coralline jealous.
Yes - my whole system is stripped of NO3 and PO4 and can´t by itself build up even a low nutrient concentration (NO3 and PO4 in this case) in the water column. I have to add both NO3 and PO4 - otherwise zero readings.

Everybody talks about the build up of nutrients - no one talks about how the nutrients enter the system. With except for some rare occasions - The bio load we put into the aquaria (food, fish, other animals and corals) is the only one that can be transformed to excess nutrients. Most import is feeding. Very few know that 100 grams dry food and 100 grams wet food (fresh or frozen) give different levels of N and P. 100 grams of dry food (of good quality) content around 4-6 times more P and N compared with 100 grams of wet food. The biomass will probably grow more with dry food but it is not always the truth.

Sincerely Lasse
Thanks!

So if you manage to keep the water quality including the nutrients at good levels(pretty low, not ultra..) do you risk to get OTS? If the answer is no, it sound like OTS appears due to lack of proper export/uptake of nutrients. If that's so, that problem shouldn't be that hard to avoid.
 
David - the sand bed in the MK (the aquarium on the picture) is around 10 - 15 cm if I do not remember wrong and there is a lot of sediment traps inside the rock work?

Sincerely Lasse
 
David - the sand bed in the MK (the aquarium on the picture) is around 10 - 15 cm if I do not remember wrong and there is a lot of sediment traps inside the rock work?

Sincerely Lasse

Yes, at the back it's a DSB/lots of mud. In the front 1-5 cm mostly sand and gravel.
 
Great discussion so far. After reading this through I notice an entrenchment of sorts between the "Detritus is mostly inert so it shouldn't be a problem if it builds up" camp and the "Detritus has been shown repeated to cause issues in our reef tanks when allowed to build up" group.

The focus of these detritus threads tends to be on the chemical nature of the material, which is interesting in and of itself, but what I believe needs more attention is the physical aspect of detritus buildup; specifically how does the microbial community differ when one has excess detritus vs. minimal detritus on top and inside of a typical reef aquarium sand bed? Lasse mentioned that detritus in and of itself has not been shown to increase NO3 levels, but quite the opposite. In the nano/pico community, I have noted a great many posts regarding high NO3 (typically 20-40 ppm and water changes typically only reduce the concentration temporarily before it rebounds back to initial levels again. Regular sand bed vacuuming has been used as a method of lowering NO3 to accepted reef aquarium levels for quite a while now and I have experienced this myself in my own 12g aquarium (30 ppm down to 1-2 ppm in ~ 1-1/2 - 2 months with no other major changes to the system).

I started to consider the obvious question "Could the anoxic/anaerobic conditions encountered in a sand bed clogged with detritus lead to incomplete processing of NO3?" As we know, under typical anoxic conditions, microorganisms catalyze NO3− to N2 in a process called denitrification, but by searching the Web I also ran across this interesting information:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/anoxic-conditions

Depending on environmental conditions and the composition and genetic capabilities of the denitrifying microbial community, denitrification can act as both source (eg, under conditions unfavorable to N2O reduction or in the presence of denitrifiers lacking nosZgenes) and sink (eg, by complete denitrification of “classical” denitrifiers and by the potential contribution of atypical N2O reducers that only carry a nosZ gene) of N2O (Braker and Conrad, 2011).

For those with experience in microbiology, hypothetically, could there be localized environmental conditions leading to incomplete NO3 reduction in a sand bed clogged with detritus?
 
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It is a well known fact that denitrification can be incomplete - eg. stop at NO2 or NxO steps. This often happens if not enough of DOC is available. I doubt that a detritus rich environment will be responsible for this. On the contrary an anoxic environment with a lot of detritus will produce (by itself) DOC for the denitrification process.

In order to understand what´s happen it is important to understand what detritus is in reality. It is particulate organic matter that´s will be breakdown to inorganic matter by bacteria in a process that is named mineralization. Organic N and organic P will be converted to inorganic N and P. Inorganic N will come out from the bacterial breakdown process as NH3/NH4 and inorganic P mainly as PO4. This regardless of whether the process is aerobic or anaerobic. This means that the form of inorganic nitrogen that´s is the product from the bacterial breakdown of detritus is NH3/NH4 - not NO3. To become NO3 this NH3/NH4 complex need to be processed by the nitrification process. This is a bacterial process that is of a whole other nature than normally break down processes. NH3/NH4 complex is a very good nutrient too - many times a better and faster nutrient than NO3, But it is also - in saltwater with its high pH - a very toxic substance in form of the NH3 gas. how much NH3 gas that will be formed depends on pH - higher levels of the more toxic NH3 gas and lesser levels of the nontoxic NH4 ion. The toxic form NH3 is a gas an can therefore be transferred out by gas exchange in the skimmer as an example. Aerating out NH3 will make some NH4 to convert to new NH3 that´s will be aerated out and further on. Theoretical - you can aerate out all NH3/NH4 and not get any of it to be converted to NO3. But if there is NH3/NH4 in the water - the nitrification process will start and form NO3 as an end product. In Nano aquarium without any skimmers or aeration you will probably have more NH3/NH4 to nitrify - hence more will end up as NO3.

Obviously, by removing detritus you can reduce the amount of inorganic N that will be produced - but you can also do that by reducing your input - the amount of food. How much of the N will be in the pop and how much will enter the water by other pathways? Estimatedly, only about 20% of the nitrogen that is not used to build up biomass appears in the faeces - 80 % of non used N hit the water by other pathways, The main pathway for gill breathing animals is through the gills as NH3/NH4. This means that around 80 % of unused N will appear directly when the fish digest the food as NH3/NH4 in the water. This means that fish pop is not the major contributor of inorganic N in an aquaria. It is only have around 16 % of the N input. New biomass (as organic N) - around 20 % of the input and direct out through the gills - around 64 % as inorganic NH3/NH4.

To clean and clean every day - that´s one way - but not the only way to a healthy reef. Through planing and chose of animals you can reuse the nutrients in the detritus direct or through sub processes like growing algae that grazers will eat later on.

For me - the goal is to use the detritus as my store (and storage) of nutrients and as a guarantee that I not hit zero PO4 or NO3. For the moment - the only real nutrient export I have is Chaeto harvest and harvest of some corals. The rest of the nutrients (and other compounds) recirculate and accumulate in places there I want to have it.

Sincerely Lasse
 
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the ocean distributes its detritus into oligotrophic and eutrophic systems

It could be interesting to know which systems you consider to be oligotrophic and which you consider eutrophic in the ocean?

Sincerely Lasse
 
No one is talking about filth, rot and decay. We are talking about bacteria and if you read this months National Geographic there is an article about the trillions of bacteria, viruses and pathogens in our healthy digestive tract that are there to keep us healthy and immune because without them, we would croak. But what do I or the guy who writes for National Geographic know?

Paul,
You had it right 47 years ago, but then again, who is counting.

I hope your weekend is going well. Tomorrow, grandkids & I go collecting grass shrimp & green mollies at Red Bud Island in down town Austin on Colorado River.
Laissez les bonne temps roulee,
Patrick
 
Salinity is pretty high on the Colorado this time of the year. :rolleyes:
I was stationed in Colorado for about 6 months and loved the place. If it had an Ocean, it would be perfect but I am like Aquaman and need an infusion of the sea constantly or else I turn into a Snowflake. :confused:

I have only been in Texas a couple of times and don't remember where I was, or why. But in those days most things were a blur. :eek:
 

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