Diagnosis help Dwarf Angel

shakeandbake · Nov 5, 2020

A week ago we picked up a Dwarf Cherub Angel and added it to our QT for observation. She was an active swimmer and a very good eater immediately. Three days ago I noticed what looked like an opaque white smudge on one of her pectoral fins. On day two it persisted and I began to notice it present occasionally as a clamped fin. It may be slightly worse/more noticeable or I might just be paying more attention to it. It certainly has not noticeably improved. She continues to be active and eating well and I do not notice any other symptoms on skin, fins, eyes, etc. and no heavy breathing. Parameters: Temp 78, Ph 8.1, Sal 34ppt, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 10-15.

I searched the forum and reviewed the disease diagnosis sticky pictures. I felt that since she was active and eating it might be best not to risk treatment initially but to instead continue to monitor. I did a 25% water change and began feeding food that was mixed with general cure and focus

Anyone have any insight on what it might be? Maybe an infection? Maybe flukes?

Would you suggest treatment? or am I right to attempt clean water and diet to heal on its own for now? I could do a freshwater dip but I didn't want to jump the gun and risk stress making it worse. I could move the fish to a hospital tank and medicate. I have general cure and prazi. Or I could pick up an antibiotic?

As always thank you in advance for sharing any insight, advice, or opinions.

Reefer5640 · Nov 5, 2020

How big is the smudge? Got any pics? I like to take pics often to keep track of the progression of the blemish. I too get inside my head and have a hard time noticing if it’s getting better or if I’m just staring at it too much. Plus, some of the reefers on here are really good at identifying ailments from a pic.

shakeandbake · Nov 5, 2020

Reefer5640 said:
How big is the smudge? Got any pics? I like to take pics often to keep track of the progression of the blemish. I too get inside my head and have a hard time noticing if it’s getting better or if I’m just staring at it too much. Plus, some of the reefers on here are really good at identifying ailments from a pic.

Hard to get a good pic she doesn’t sit still for long!

Reefer5640 · Nov 5, 2020

Does it seem to have a texture? Or is it more like the color is just faded. Could be a wound thats possibly turned into a bacterial or fungal infection. Or just a sting that’s healing. You could wait a little and keep her under observation. If it gets worse I’d do a methylene blue dip or other antiseptic dip, could help keep it clean. And then treat with a broad spectrum like Kannaplex, sulfaplex, or general cure. Or if you wanted to get aggressive about it you can treat with all three of these together; furan-2, Kannaplex, and metro. I use that combo when I need broad spectrum and want an aggressive approach.

Or wait for someone else to reply, I’m sure someone else with more experience will be along with better advice.

Jay Hemdal · Nov 5, 2020

shakeandbake said:
A week ago we picked up a Dwarf Cherub Angel and added it to our QT for observation. She was an active swimmer and a very good eater immediately. Three days ago I noticed what looked like an opaque white smudge on one of her pectoral fins. On day two it persisted and I began to notice it present occasionally as a clamped fin. It may be slightly worse/more noticeable or I might just be paying more attention to it. It certainly has not noticeably improved. She continues to be active and eating well and I do not notice any other symptoms on skin, fins, eyes, etc. and no heavy breathing. Parameters: Temp 78, Ph 8.1, Sal 34ppt, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 10-15.

I searched the forum and reviewed the disease diagnosis sticky pictures. I felt that since she was active and eating it might be best not to risk treatment initially but to instead continue to monitor. I did a 25% water change and began feeding food that was mixed with general cure and focus

Anyone have any insight on what it might be? Maybe an infection? Maybe flukes?

Would you suggest treatment? or am I right to attempt clean water and diet to heal on its own for now? I could do a freshwater dip but I didn't want to jump the gun and risk stress making it worse. I could move the fish to a hospital tank and medicate. I have general cure and prazi. Or I could pick up an antibiotic?

As always thank you in advance for sharing any insight, advice, or opinions.

I typically don’t recommend an “observational quarantine” - if you don’t start treating prophylactically, you’re then behind if a disease does start up. You mention the fish is in a QT, but you could move it to a hospital tank - not sure I understand, your QT should be a hospital tank.
I understand if you are reluctant to dose a Pygmy angel with copper, but coppersafe should be ok. An alternative would be API General Cure, covers different disease, but still a good course of action for a QT.
Jay

shakeandbake · Nov 5, 2020

Jay Hemdal said:
I typically don’t recommend an “observational quarantine” - if you don’t start treating prophylactically, you’re then behind if a disease does start up. You mention the fish is in a QT, but you could move it to a hospital tank - not sure I understand, your QT should be a hospital tank.
I understand if you are reluctant to dose a Pygmy angel with copper, but coppersafe should be ok. An alternative would be API General Cure, covers different disease, but still a good course of action for a QT.
Jay

Thank you for your reply.

We are getting back into the hobby and I am new to QT practices. With zero experience administering medication we felt that a prophylactic approach might significantly increase risk. So, our plan was to set up our old tank, a 29g, as a QT and observe all additions for a few days first. Then, either treat fish exhibiting symptoms, or, keep the fish in the QT for 5-6 weeks. We have copperpower, hanna copper test kits, General cure, and prazipro, on hand. We also have a 10 gallon that could be used as a hospital tank in case that would make treatment easier. The first pair of fish in our QT had internal parasites and were successfully treated with food soaked in GC. The next pair did not present any symptoms and they were added to the display after the 6th week.

So I am clear on your reply... you recommend prophylactic treatment. So, was your advice... moving forward, do not observe, treat all fish with copper and/or API General Cure as a prophylactic QT treatment. Or, are you suggesting that in this case, after observing this symptom, you would advise dosing the QT water with API General Cure?

Thank you again. I truly appreciate your input.

Jay Hemdal · Nov 6, 2020

Yes - without preventative treatment, this is really is just a quarantine from your other fish, the new fish itself is still at risk. If/when the angel gets sick, you've then lost time while the disease gains a foothold, but before you noticed symptoms. I see too many people here - chasing ich or velvet, and many times, treatments fail due to their lag time compared to the time the disease has had to get started.

The only issue is that argi angels are delicate. The vast majority are collected in Haiti and that supply chain, although better than it once was, is still pretty rough on fish. A conservative approach would be to dose with Prazipro and see if the splotch resolves (flukes). Slightly more aggressive would be to dose with API General Cure (flukes and some internal protozoans). Full on triage would be copper and GC. If the spot changes to show redness or ragged fins, then you should consider a bacterial infection and treat with antibiotics.

Jay

shakeandbake · Nov 6, 2020

Jay Hemdal said:
Yes - without preventative treatment, this is really is just a quarantine from your other fish, the new fish itself is still at risk. If/when the angel gets sick, you've then lost time while the disease gains a foothold, but before you noticed symptoms. I see too many people here - chasing ich or velvet, and many times, treatments fail due to their lag time compared to the time the disease has had to get started.

The only issue is that argi angels are delicate. The vast majority are collected in Haiti and that supply chain, although better than it once was, is still pretty rough on fish. A conservative approach would be to dose with Prazipro and see if the splotch resolves (flukes). Slightly more aggressive would be to dose with API General Cure (flukes and some internal protozoans). Full on triage would be copper and GC. If the spot changes to show redness or ragged fins, then you should consider a bacterial infection and treat with antibiotics.

Jay

Excellent, thank you again for your detailed reply and excellent advice. i will treat this afternoon with GC to attempt to eliminate flukes as a potential cause and then monitor in case of bacterial infection. I will pick up an antibiotic to have on hand like API Erythromycin in case the smudge turns red.

As of this morning it remains a smudge. I feared that adding Erythromycin would damage good bacteria in the tank and risk an ammonia bump adding stress and potentially making things worse. So I wanted to delay that treatment unless someone with "smudge" experience advised against any delay.

On general QT practice... Like many others, our goal is to carefully add healthy fish and coral to our display tank. So we want to quarantine all new arrivals and try our best to prevent introducing disease and unwanted pests. All of our fish have come from one local LFS. When adding fish I have tested their water for low doses of copper using an API or salifert kit. This has confirmed what we were told, that the LFS does not add copper to their tanks. With that, we believed that if we first observed fish held at the LFS for a week or so, if they did not display symptoms of ick, velvet, etc while at the LFS... we could potentially avoid chasing treatment of those issues when added to our QT. Then, during a 6-week period in our QT, if symptoms present we can immediately begin treatment.

I know prophylactic treatment is the gold standard. But fear of the misapplication of treatments or of stressing otherwise healthy fish has us attempting this observation first approach. We felt that until we gain experience successfully treating with copper, etc. we just lack confidence in an aggressive prophylactic treatment for all new arrivals, expecially those that are observed at the LFS without copper and have not shown symptoms over time.

As with everything in this hobby, I am 100% open to expert advice. And if that advice indicates that this practice is ill advised, we will absolutely modify it moving forward.

Thank you again.

Jay Hemdal · Nov 6, 2020

Erythromycin (Maracyn 1) would not be my first choice of an antibiotic to use as it has a history of harming the beneficial bacteria in aquariums. A broad spectrum, gram negative antibiotic such as Maracyn 2 or Kanaplex would be my first choice.

Jay

shakeandbake · Nov 8, 2020

Update. I set up our 10 gallon and moved in the CUC and the zoas that I also had in the QT. (Now we have a QT for our QT!)

I picked up some Kanaplex at the LFS. Since the fish was active and eating well, they suggested that I try something milder first and then if the fin does not improve in a day or two go with the kanaplex. So on Friday night I added 1oz of Ruby Reef Rally. The tank turned bright green and I noticed some spots appear on her damaged fin. They looked opaque and I thought those were flukes? They disappeared after a few minutes. On day two the smudge appeared to have cleared a little and I noticed that her fin was slightly torn. I dosed 1oz of Rally again on Saturday night. This round I noticed just one spot appear, but it was on her side. This one did not look opaque but it did disappear after 5-10 minutes. Since she was continuing to swim and feed well I thought it was time to tackle flukes. So I shut down the filter, pulled out the bio rings and the filter/carbon pad and put them in the back of the tank. Then I dosed 2 1/2 packets of Metro Cure. I cranked up the air pump a bit. She seems to have gotten a little less active. But this morning her fin continues to look a little better.

My plan is to dose one more round of Rally again Sunday night. Wait til next Saturday, then do a water change and dose the second round of Metro. I'll leave the CUC and the zoas in the coral QT for 4-5 weeks solo before adding them to a tank with fish.