Diatom, cyano, or dinos?

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Dinoflagelates. A disruptive treatment

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www.reef2reef.com

This thread goes into detail about carbon dosing for dino.

For anyone following trying to solve Dinos, this thread he linked is VERY interesting! Multiple people on it have tried it with success, seems promising. I think I'll start it tomorrow!

 

[sixty_reefer]

So basically doing what the article/thread that ggNore linked? I noticed you're active on that thread. Almost done reading through all the comments. So what is difference between Reef actif and Vodka or vinegar which are more readily available?

the difference in the organic carbon source is the size of the polymer chains

Quotes from Lou @ tropic marine

The natural salt water polymer derived from seaweed is in the Reef Actif NOT the NP BACTO Balance. The NP BACTO Balance is a medium short polymer that has advantages over the monomers like vodka (alcohol), vinegar and sugars. But it is not the one from seaweed.

My understanding, as it has been explained to me by my team in Germany, is that most (not exclusively but most) of the algae and bacterial critters that we would prefer NOT to grow in our systems, have much better mechanisms for utilizing monomers than anything that is longer carbon chains. They just don't have good ability to break those longer chains down to the monomers they need. While the good guys (algae and bacteria) that are helpful to us have much better mechanisms for breaking those longer chains down to the monomers they utilize. So if you add mostly carbon chains that are more than monomers, you "target" and focus that nutrition on the beneficial critters we like to see multiply and help our closed tank system biome.

I can assure you that what he’s saying works as I have been using this product myself as a maintenance dose to my system, I find it fairly safe to use and so far I wasn’t able to overdose it, vodka, vinegar and other sources of carbon can create blooms if not used carefully.

I've been dropping my refugium light time on over the last week from on 20 hours to on 6 hours as of today. I've been power feeding to get my nitrates and phosphates up, even before I knew these were dinos. I aim for .1 phos, 5+ nitrates, but they've been getting low over last couple of weeks. They weren't too bad I thought during the time the dinos started though. Around .1 phos, 5 nitrates if my timeline is correct (which it might not be lol). I'll try to get my nitrates and phosphates to a decently high number before starting the carbon dosing method I suppose?

Personally I don’t agree with this approach, I would prefer to raise my nutrients with calcium nitrate or sodium nitrate, most folks tend to use ready made products that may contain ammonia and urea for this same purpose that can be detrimental to the system as ammonia and urea can allow nuisances to bloom in out systems.
If you were to raise nutrients and add a maintenance dose of organic carbon to the system to allow beneficial bacteria to grow you would notice that in time algae starts receding, this is due to the bacteria being able to use all free ammonia before the algae. In addition most test kits including Hanna have a 0.02 error margin keeping your phosphates at 0.01 means that phosphates could actually be zero this will affect your heterotrophic beneficial bacteria that will be limited by phosphates that are fairly important for tissue building.
In the absence of a good heterotrophic bacteria population ammonia becomes more available in the system that seems to be the main trigger for nuisances in our systems, I’ve got a new thread on the research forum going we’re hopefully I will be able to demonstrate how ammonia management can be the route cause of all our problems, our tanks are constantly producing ammonia and depending how we manage it different outcomes will happen, stimulating the growth of beneficial bacteria with carbon sources seems key to redirect ammonia from nuisances to beneficial bacteria.

edit: by reducing the light photoperiod in your Refugium instead of raising no3 and po4 you will allow more ammonia to become Available in your DT as Refugium algae’s are also fairly effective at doing that , they don’t just reduce no3 and po4

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

the difference in the organic carbon source is the size of the polymer chains

Quotes from Lou @ tropic marine

The natural salt water polymer derived from seaweed is in the Reef Actif NOT the NP BACTO Balance. The NP BACTO Balance is a medium short polymer that has advantages over the monomers like vodka (alcohol), vinegar and sugars. But it is not the one from seaweed.

My understanding, as it has been explained to me by my team in Germany, is that most (not exclusively but most) of the algae and bacterial critters that we would prefer NOT to grow in our systems, have much better mechanisms for utilizing monomers than anything that is longer carbon chains. They just don't have good ability to break those longer chains down to the monomers they need. While the good guys (algae and bacteria) that are helpful to us have much better mechanisms for breaking those longer chains down to the monomers they utilize. So if you add mostly carbon chains that are more than monomers, you "target" and focus that nutrition on the beneficial critters we like to see multiply and help our closed tank system biome.

I can assure you that what he’s saying works as I have been using this product myself as a maintenance dose to my system, I find it fairly safe to use and so far I wasn’t able to overdose it, vodka, vinegar and other sources of carbon can create blooms if not used carefully.



Personally I don’t agree with this approach, I would prefer to raise my nutrients with calcium nitrate or sodium nitrate, most folks tend to use ready made products that may contain ammonia and urea for this same purpose that can be detrimental to the system as ammonia and urea can allow nuisances to bloom in out systems.
If you were to raise nutrients and add a maintenance dose of organic carbon to the system to allow beneficial bacteria to grow you would notice that in time algae starts receding, this is due to the bacteria being able to use all free ammonia before the algae. In addition most test kits including Hanna have a 0.02 error margin keeping your phosphates at 0.01 means that phosphates could actually be zero this will affect your heterotrophic beneficial bacteria that will be limited by phosphates that are fairly important for tissue building.
In the absence of a good heterotrophic bacteria population ammonia becomes more available in the system that seems to be the main trigger for nuisances in our systems, I’ve got a new thread on the research forum going we’re hopefully I will be able to demonstrate how ammonia management can be the route cause of all our problems, our tanks are constantly producing ammonia and depending how we manage it different outcomes will happen, stimulating the growth of beneficial bacteria with carbon sources seems key to redirect ammonia from nuisances to beneficial bacteria.

edit: by reducing the light photoperiod in your Refugium instead of raising no3 and po4 you will allow more ammonia to become Available in your DT as Refugium algae’s are also fairly effective at doing that , they don’t just reduce no3 and po4

Interesting. Which part(s) do you disagree with, It sounds like you think I shouldn't reduce my fuge lighting, but what about the power feeding, do you agree or disagree with that portion?

So in general are you recommending that I do not use Vodka, Vinegar, Brown Sugar as suggested in the DIY recipe in the other thread? Use Reef Actif instead? I just bought the Vodka, Vinegar, and Brown Sugar this morning lol. From what Beuchat said in the other thread, they seem to be having better results in more result trials with this DIY recipe than the ready made products on the market. I don't remember from the 9 pages of reading which products he liked or did not like, I think it's around page 2-3. I'll check.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

What lighting is ideal then btw? I have it at 6 hours right now. Had it at 20 for the last month or so. I usually have it somewhat high, but also am always struggling to keep Nitrates and Phosphates up. Are you suggesting letting the Refugium have longer hours for ammonia and maybe other benefits, but dose Nitrates and Phosphates directly? I guess my hesitancy is just that I'd prefer to get a more "natural balance" whatever that might mean to us lol, than dosing so many things all the time. I already dose 2 part + All For Reef, and may start dosing Magnesium soon as it's always around 1150-1200. Now I'd be dosing 7+ things if I start with Nitrates, Phosphates, and Carbon dosing. Getting kind of crazy here, and also just takes more time.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

I enjoy power feeding btw because I want my fish to grow a lot since I have 300 gallons to play with lol, they seem happy with it, and it's fun for me too lol. I feed as much pellets as they can eat in like 30-60 seconds of slowly dropping them in so they don't fall to sand. Once they start ignoring the pieces a bit I stop. I do this like 3 times a day + one frozen cube at night. I have about 15 small-medium fish on average, only a couple in the 4-5 inch range. I dose phyto once every few days. Reef Roids rarely. Maybe every couple of weeks right now because I had lot of spirorbid worms I got sick of lol.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Interesting. Which part(s) do you disagree with, It sounds like you think I shouldn't reduce my fuge lighting, but what about the power feeding, do you agree or disagree with that portion?

So in general are you recommending that I do not use Vodka, Vinegar, Brown Sugar as suggested in the DIY recipe in the other thread? Use Reef Actif instead? I just bought the Vodka, Vinegar, and Brown Sugar this morning lol. From what Beuchat said in the other thread, they seem to be having better results in more result trials with this DIY recipe than the ready made products on the market. I don't remember from the 9 pages of reading which products he liked or did not like, I think it's around page 2-3. I'll check.

I would just feed as normal, extra food will raise your ammonia levels that are detrimental for your current situation, as you have all the ingredients at hand for the beuchat method go ahead with it this will starve the dinoflagellates fairly easy and keep the Refugium as you have it now once you eradicate the dinoflagellates raise the photoperiod to aid the system assimilate the nutrients from the dead dinoflagellates.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

I would just feed as normal, extra food will raise your ammonia levels that are detrimental for your current situation, as you have all the ingredients at hand for the beuchat method go ahead with it this will starve the dinoflagellates fairly easy and keep the Refugium as you have it now once you eradicate the dinoflagellates raise the photoperiod to aid the system assimilate the nutrients from the dead dinoflagellates.

Awesome thank you so much for the feedback. I'm pretty excited to try this lol. Other than these/cyano or whatever else it may be coating sand and rocks, the tank is looking so beautiful. Can't wait to win this battle (and onto whatever the next battle will be inevitably haha). I won't get my hopes up just yet though. Let's go!

 

[ggNoRe]

Awesome thank you so much for the feedback. I'm pretty excited to try this lol. Other than these/cyano or whatever else it may be coating sand and rocks, the tank is looking so beautiful. Can't wait to win this battle (and onto whatever the next battle will be inevitably haha). I won't get my hopes up just yet though. Let's go!

Keep us updated. I'm fighting dinos myself (for the third time in 2 yrs with this system). Im on day 3 of carbon dosing and dosing silicates at night. No improvement just yet. I do have a UV sterilizer as well.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Keep us updated. I'm fighting dinos myself (for the third time in 2 yrs with this system). Im on day 3 of carbon dosing and dosing silicates at night. No improvement just yet. I do have a UV sterilizer as well.

Will do brotha. Are you using the silica to try to encourage diatoms to compete with the dinos? Is that just a hunch you have or do you have a thread for me to understand the silica reasoning?

 

[HB AL]

Didn't read any responses sorry, looks like diatoms and decomposing green algae?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Diatoms are a fairly effective type of phytoplankton at using nutrients and are only limited in growth often by silica, they are effective at outcompeting the dinoflagellates as they will be assimilating ammonia into they’re body mass more efficiently than dinoflagellates slowly starving them.

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Diatoms are a fairly effective type of phytoplankton at using nutrients and are only limited in growth often by silica, they are effective at outcompeting the dinoflagellates as they will be assimilating ammonia into they’re body mass more efficiently than dinoflagellates slowly starving them.

But then you have diatom problem? Or do you just stop dosing silicates and they die off?

 

[sixty_reefer]

But then you have diatom problem? Or do you just stop dosing silicates and they die off?

Yes as soon as silica is depleted the diatoms will become dormant until silica is available again, this happens with all organisms in our system once they become limited in one or more nutrients they will become dormant or perish depending on the organism in question.
min reality you will never outcompete the dinoflagellates fully once the bloom is over cell’s will still stay in your system just waiting for the next favourable conditions to bloom again.

 

[ggNoRe]

That's right trying to create diatoms which aren't toxic and a whole lot easier to get rid of than dinoflagellates.