Difference between Aquaforest -NP Polymer and ZEOvit ZEOstart?

[DiZASTiX]

Anyone know the difference between Aquaforest -NP Polymer and ZEOvit ZEOstart?

I currently run full Aquaforest and full ZEOvit EXCEPT that I run Aquaforest Zeo Mix and -NP Polymer.

Is there any harm in mixing ZEOstart and -NP Polymer?

What about the stones? As I've learnt, ZEOvit stones are home to bacteria, whereas Aquaforest stones are not. Is there any harm in mixing ZEOvit zeolites and Aquaforest Zeo Mix?

 

[Perry]

For all intensive purposes, Zeolite is Zeolite. The application is where the companies differ, that and amounts of use. I see no harm in mixing of Zeolites, personally. As far as NP Pro and ZeoStart3, this is redundant, and could lead to over dosing of c-source. So, choose one or the other. As per recommended in Probiotic Method, use of vinegar/vodka is not recommended. That said, I get a strong whiff of ZeoStart3 and immediately vinegar comes to mind, draw your own conclusions, as the ingredients are not listed by Zeovit. Cheers

 

[DiZASTiX]

For all intensive purposes, Zeolite is Zeolite. The application is where the companies differ, that and amounts of use. I see no harm in mixing of Zeolites, personally. As far as NP Pro and ZeoStart3, this is redundant, and could lead to over dosing of c-source. So, choose one or the other. As per recommended in Probiotic Method, use of vinegar/vodka is not recommended. That said, I get a strong whiff of ZeoStart3 and immediately vinegar comes to mind, draw your own conclusions, as the ingredients are not listed by Zeovit. Cheers

Thank you @Perry .. It sounds like you drew a good conclusion for me regarding what ZEOvit may be in its chief constituent. However, obviously a reputable company isn't selling us purely vinegar for over $100/L. That would be ridiculous. <Part sarcasm>

But why not dose both? We dose VSV. Randy did point out that it is safe to do so.

Secondly, I'm currently dosing 44.4 mL/day -NP Polymer, but I'm not losing any nitrates. I've since upped that amount to 66.6 mL/day today. This is for a 40 gallon total system with a single fish, so something may be off. I used to dose vinegar at around 35 mL/day to counter nitrate daily growth.

As far as stones, someone on this thread mentioned that for AF stones, bacteria don't grow on the stones, and that is why they don't need to be shaken. Would you kindly weigh in?

 

[DiZASTiX]

Also if the zeolites are the same, then is there ever a point in shaking zeolites? I ask because I'm considering getting this automatic shaking zeolite reactor.

 

[Anirban]

How old is your system? You need an established bacterial population to use the carbon source and process the NO3 and PO4. Can you please explain why you want to mix both carbon sources? I can understand mixing zeolite from AF and using zeostart from zeovit but why zeostart and NP pro together? You have to be patient to reduce the NO3 and let the system first establish itself and then reducing your NO3.

 

[DiZASTiX]

How old is your system? You need an established bacterial population to use the carbon source and process the NO3 and PO4. Can you please explain why you want to mix both carbon sources? I can understand mixing zeolite from AF and using zeostart from zeovit but why zeostart and NP pro together? You have to be patient to reduce the NO3 and let the system first establish itself and then reducing your NO3.

Well, in the past, I've mixer vinegar and vodka. These two substances aren't those, but it seems like a rationale thing: to acquire a more diverse NO bacterial population.

 

[Anirban]

I hope you know zeostart 3 and NP Pro are not bacterial sources. They are carbon polymers or carbon sources. So, if you want a more diverse bacterial population you need to dose Pro bio S.

 

[DiZASTiX]

Indeed I understand that. But like I said--vinegar and vodka aren't bacterial sources either, but VSV is a common configuration. Thoughts?


(I do dose both Pro Bio S and ZEObak already).

 

[Anirban]

We really dont know the constituents of either zeostart 3 and NP pro. I think neither of the company will tell that too as its proprietary to them. Its hard to tell the effect of something when you dont know the constituents. Mixing them may be a good idea or may be devastating. Only wise suggestion I would like to give is please dont overdose them to bring down your NO3. I have seen people chasing NO3 and PO4 with higher carbon dosing including NP Pro and the results were never good. Give the system time and after few months you will see the NO3 and PO4 will start coming down. Just wait and stick to a single product and regime that is the trick.

 

[Perry]

Hello,
And FWIW, I go with cause and effect, however, this is tricky, and the process can take time, so it will be hard to determine the effectiveness of one carbon source over another. Is it possible, yes absolutely, necessary, likely not. I am only going by my intuition with respect to the likelihood of vinegar being present in Zeostart3, that and understanding AF fairly well, and the do's and don'ts if you will Everything is possible with reef keeping, so nothing is ruled out, and what works for one may not for another. I have found however, that adding Life Bio Fil as more of an advantage with the Probiotic Method from AF. Many users, myself included have moved off the Zeo stones and just use Life Bio Fil, Siporax, or Matrix. These I have used with AF and can speak to their validity. Zeo Stones come into play for reefs packed with fish, as the main purpose is rapid reduction of ammonia. With a smaller fish or even medium fish load, I find them to be unnecessary. NP Pro and Pro Bio S, along side good maintenance, powerful skimming(dry), as well as a good CUC(standard in any aquarium), and you should need nothing else really. I would also employ GAC, and you may want a bit of Phosphate Minus to help further reduce PO4. Hope this helps

 

[DiZASTiX]

Hello,
And FWIW, I go with cause and effect, however, this is tricky, and the process can take time, so it will be hard to determine the effectiveness of one carbon source over another. Is it possible, yes absolutely, necessary, likely not. I am only going by my intuition with respect to the likelihood of vinegar being present in Zeostart3, that and understanding AF fairly well, and the do's and don'ts if you will Everything is possible with reef keeping, so nothing is ruled out, and what works for one may not for another. I have found however, that adding Life Bio Fil as more of an advantage with the Probiotic Method from AF. Many users, myself included have moved off the Zeo stones and just use Life Bio Fil, Siporax, or Matrix. These I have used with AF and can speak to their validity. Zeo Stones come into play for reefs packed with fish, as the main purpose is rapid reduction of ammonia. With a smaller fish or even medium fish load, I find them to be unnecessary. NP Pro and Pro Bio S, along side good maintenance, powerful skimming(dry), as well as a good CUC(standard in any aquarium), and you should need nothing else really. I would also employ GAC, and you may want a bit of Phosphate Minus to help further reduce PO4. Hope this helps

How are you using Life Bio Fil? Are you using the AF reactor?

If you don't use Zeo stones, then it sounds like you don't use a zeolite reactor?

 

[Perry]

I am using Life Bio Fil passive in a mesh bag, I have an AIO and place in the media basket. This works well, I am not wanting ultra low nutrients, albeit, it has much more impact in a reactor. No, I do not use the stones, and when I did, I did not use in a manner which required pulsing, as far as AF goes. Any up flow reactor should suffice in the AF method. Either way, some still insist on using in a pulsing manner, so that is fine too.

 

[DiZASTiX]

Previously @Anirban commented:

You can use. These are two different approaches. AF uses Life biofil as bacteria sources and its zeolite lowers down the nutrients specially NO3 through ammonia absorption. AF uses the same technique in converting NO3 and Po4 into biomass which corals can use but their zeolite dont necessarily house bacteria so you dont shake the zeolite.

You seem to have a lot of expertise in this area as well, @Perry .. Can you elaborate on your prior post:

For all intensive purposes, Zeolite is Zeolite. The application is where the companies differ, that and amounts of use. I see no harm in mixing of Zeolites, personally. As far as NP Pro and ZeoStart3, this is redundant, and could lead to over dosing of c-source. So, choose one or the other. As per recommended in Probiotic Method, use of vinegar/vodka is not recommended. That said, I get a strong whiff of ZeoStart3 and immediately vinegar comes to mind, draw your own conclusions, as the ingredients are not listed by Zeovit. Cheers

I don't think I would intend on mixing zeolites, and I'm convinced by you all: no point in mixing carbon sources. However, at the risk of asking a question that's more of a "do you prefer chocolate or vanilla", why would one choose Aquaforest's zeolite system over ZEOvit's zeolite system, and vice-versa?

 

[DiZASTiX]

Zeo Stones come into play for reefs packed with fish, as the main purpose is rapid reduction of ammonia. With a smaller fish or even medium fish load, I find them to be unnecessary.

What would the not main, or secondary purposes of zeolites be? Also, does this statement also apply to the zeolites from the ZEOvit brand?

 

[Perry]

What would the not main, or secondary purposes of zeolites be? Also, does this statement also apply to the zeolites from the ZEOvit brand?

Based on my use of both methods, there is a difference likely in the bacteria and carbon source than that of zeolite. Do some simple research on industrial/commercial uses of zeolites, there you can draw your own conclusion. At first glance or sight, I can see no difference, this is my own visual comparison. As far as main/ secondary use of zeolites, as stated above, they work on rapid reduction of ammonia, therefore speeding up or elevating the nitrification process, thus reduction of nitrates. This would be the core of the Zeovit system, pulsing keeps the media free of mulm/ bacteria, thus allowing a food source to corals and fish, main reason why Zeovit reactor is after the skimmer, therefore the tank benefits from the release of the mulm, any left over goes back to the filter/skimmer for removal. With bacteria from AF, I believe it and NP Pro can attain UNLS, if applied properly. Many expand the bio-filtration using bacteria homing media as pumice or sintered glass, which is many times more efficient than live rock. This along with daily dosing of NP Pro and Pro Bio S, in my opinion, is quite enough for most UNLS tanks. Zeomix in the AF system is for the advanced users and tanks that have heavy fish and very large corals, a heavy bio-load if you will. Please do some research and you will be able to see how to fit these products in to your husbandry. Best of luck, update and let us all know your success Cheers

 

[DiZASTiX]

Based on my use of both methods, there is a difference likely in the bacteria and carbon source than that of zeolite. Do some simple research on industrial/commercial uses of zeolites, there you can draw your own conclusion. At first glance or sight, I can see no difference, this is my own visual comparison. As far as main/ secondary use of zeolites, as stated above, they work on rapid reduction of ammonia, therefore speeding up or elevating the nitrification process, thus reduction of nitrates. This would be the core of the Zeovit system, pulsing keeps the media free of mulm/ bacteria, thus allowing a food source to corals and fish, main reason why Zeovit reactor is after the skimmer, therefore the tank benefits from the release of the mulm, any left over goes back to the filter/skimmer for removal. With bacteria from AF, I believe it and NP Pro can attain UNLS, if applied properly. Many expand the bio-filtration using bacteria homing media as pumice or sintered glass, which is many times more efficient than live rock. This along with daily dosing of NP Pro and Pro Bio S, in my opinion, is quite enough for most UNLS tanks. Zeomix in the AF system is for the advanced users and tanks that have heavy fish and very large corals, a heavy bio-load if you will. Please do some research and you will be able to see how to fit these products in to your husbandry. Best of luck, update and let us all know your success Cheers

Thank you. This is incredibly useful information.