Dino... again... I know...

[MLaura]

Hi all,

I'm new in the forum but I have my tank for 2 years already, I already dealt with a lot of booms, diseases, plagues and nuisances of all levels. Yes I wanted to start quick (first one of many mistakes) so I start with living rocks and living sand. I don't regret however, every day was a new surprise, a miracle of life (although some deaths).
But I was young and ignorant. I was also alone with some books and internet. I've had tropical tanks all my life and decide to do the big step (too big for me, no doubt) So hubby give me a Fluval eco of 57liters more or less.

After the summer holidays I usually have problems, but this time the solution is taking very long, at a point I'm in dispair and decide to come begging for help.

So, everything started when I spot a red slime covering my sand and rocks, and the weird details is that the red slime vanish when the lights are off, when the lights are on again for some moments all was fine but minutes after my tank would be covered with the red stuff. So I went to my fish shop to try to find the solution and they suggest to me Antired, didn't work out. Went to another shop and they suggested Easy-Life Excital (cyano stain remover) also no luck, then back to the first shop they told that only Chemiclean would do the job... it didn't!
So in dispair I joined Facebook marine tank groups and they suggested me to black lockdown my tank for 5 days and physical removal of the red stuff. It really did wonders, I noticed a big difference after that, but guess what... it is coming back again... slowly but steady! In the meanwhile all my snails and britle stars are dead

This isn't the only problem... my nutrient values are crazy...Let me show it:
pH - 8-8.2
Sal - 1.023
Kh - 8dKh
Nitrite - 0ppm
Nitrate - 50ppm (crazy!!)
Ammonia - 0ppm
P04 - 1ppm
Mg - 1140ppm (is this bad?)

I also collected a sample of water and check on my son's microscope. I think is Dinoflagellate, I am a biology teacher, but far from being an expert on marine protists, sadly! Also know that depending on the group of dinos, different strategies should be applied so I took pictures. I know there are not very good, and the magnification not the best (resolution sucks) hope an expert is able to identify or help.

I also show the display of my tank before and after the blackout.


How do the nutrient values affect my Dino population? I know they should be there and they will be there for ever, but is the lack of balance that is leading to a boom of Dino.
Is UV a good solution? isn't my tank too small for a UV lamp?
How about the Vibrant, is that trustworthy? Looks too good to be true, tbh...
Should I first balance my nutrients and then the pop of Dino will naturally get back to normal?

Please help...

Thank you so much and very sorry for the long post...

Laura

 

[ReefLab]

The smallest available UV I can find thats worth your time is the Aqua UV 8 watt "advantage" which is about $125 and rated for 70 gallons. you would need a small pump to run it and you would want to run it permanently or they would likely come back.

The reason it looks great after blackout is because they are suspended in the water column in darkness but attach to a substrate and form colonies where there is light available. best bet in a small tank like that would be to remove the top layer of the sand bed when you see them, but the UV would likely get rid of it.

You could also consider silicate dosing

Not an expert but my 2 cents from being a reef2reef addict and dealing with Dinos myself lol

 

[MLaura]

The smallest available UV I can find thats worth your time is the Aqua UV 8 watt "advantage" which is about $125 and rated for 70 gallons. you would need a small pump to run it and you would want to run it permanently or they would likely come back.

The reason it looks great after blackout is because they are suspended in the water column in darkness but attach to a substrate and form colonies where there is light available. best bet in a small tank like that would be to remove the top layer of the sand bed when you see them, but the UV would likely get rid of it.

You could also consider silicate dosing

Not an expert but my 2 cents from being a reef2reef addict and dealing with Dinos myself lol

Many thanks for you answer, I forgot to mention that u also have been using DinoX with few success.
My big concern is investing time and money again in something that will bot work. Because I understand that different groups of Dinos will be susceptible to different treatments, thats why I would like to have an identification of the Dino. But the more I look to the pics the less confident I an with the identification.

 

[MLaura]

Also, everything I read associate dinoflagellates with zero Phosphates and Nitrates... but my values are much the opposite... I don't get it!!!

 

[bobssecrtsn]

i don’t think you have Dino’s as they thrive on zero nitrate and phosphate. You may find where the nutrients is coming from and slowly lower it

 

[MLaura]

i don’t think you have Dino’s as they thrive on zero nitrate and phosphate. You may find where the nutrients is coming from and slowly lower it

But the microscope pictures??? They match with the Dino descriptions, and they do disappear from the sand and rocks at night.... I'm about to giving up

 

[Marc2952]

The smallest available UV I can find thats worth your time is the Aqua UV 8 watt "advantage" which is about $125 and rated for 70 gallons. you would need a small pump to run it and you would want to run it permanently or they would likely come back.

The reason it looks great after blackout is because they are suspended in the water column in darkness but attach to a substrate and form colonies where there is light available. best bet in a small tank like that would be to remove the top layer of the sand bed when you see them, but the UV would likely get rid of it.

You could also consider silicate dosing

Not an expert but my 2 cents from being a reef2reef addict and dealing with Dinos myself lol

Theres a cheaper option the green killing machine which is easy to install and its 24W. Only for 80 bucks i think.

 

[SMSREEF]

Do you think you could suck up some of the brown on the sand and put on a slide.

In lower magnification so you can see more, maybe there is something other than Dino’s.
hopefully diatoms and not Dino’s.

 

[Crustaceon]

Dinos and cyano are more commonly associated with lower nutrient levels but they can pop up at the other end of the spectrum. IMO it tends to be due a microbial imbalance. No matter what, that balance should be tipped in the favor of beneficial bacteria. What I would do in your circumstance is dose a beneficial bacteria as directed and spur its propagation with 1ml of distilled white vinegar. You’ll want to see a slight bloom in the water within 24 hours. Do a normal water change during the bloom and try to siphon out your sandbed while you’re at it. I’d say 2 gallons? Repeat this every 2-3 days and I wouldn’t be surprised if you had this fully addressed within two weeks. Either way, you should get your nutrients down and water changes will do that.

 

[MLaura]

Dinos and cyano are more commonly associated with lower nutrient levels but they can pop up at the other end of the spectrum. IMO it tends to be due a microbial imbalance. No matter what, that balance should be tipped in the favor of beneficial bacteria. What I would do in your circumstance is dose a beneficial bacteria as directed and spur its propagation with 1ml of distilled white vinegar. You’ll want to see a slight bloom in the water within 24 hours. Do a normal water change during the bloom and try to siphon out your sandbed while you’re at it. I’d say 2 gallons? Repeat this every 2-3 days and I wouldn’t be surprised if you had this fully addressed within two weeks. Either way, you should get your nutrients down and water changes will do that.

Hi, thank you so much for your replay. A dose of beneficial bacteria you mean Vibrant? I been used Easy-Life Excital with no visibel effect, but never tried the vinegar.... I've been siphoning the sand bed and that's what is been controlling the population but if I stop doing it for 2 or 3 days they came back on the photos I have a good layer if sand and should have a good bacteria population already, so for some reason the competition solution is not working Do you also advise UV? even without a def identification of the Dino group?

 

[Crustaceon]

Hi, thank you so much for your replay. A dose of beneficial bacteria you mean Vibrant? I been used Easy-Life Excital with no visibel effect, but never tried the vinegar.... I've been siphoning the sand bed and that's what is been controlling the population but if I stop doing it for 2 or 3 days they came back on the photos I have a good layer if sand and should have a good bacteria population already, so for some reason the competition solution is not working Do you also advise UV? even without a def identification of the Dino group?

The amount of bacteria we have in our systems is what’s naturally able to be sustained in relation to what else is in the system with it. If other organisms that have a good enough foothold are competing for typically nitrates and phosphates, they can outcompete beneficial bacteria and spread, whether is dinos, cyano or green hair algae. This still holds true after the tank is cycled. The product you mentioned are both bacterial based and I think it’s pretty funny they don’t mention it because I’ll bet most beneficial bacteria strains we use, regardless of the product are exactly the same or at least play the same role. Now imagine a field that had a herd of goats in it. They ate everything and most of them left to find better pastures. Now picture one goat staying behind and being overwhelmed by weeds. What you need are more goats. By adding a carbon source such as vinegar, bacteria will temporarily overpopulate your system and will starve other organisms of resources. The trick is to then remove some of this “gut-loaded” bacteria so they don’t starve and die as well, releasing nitrates and phosphates back into the water. This is also a fantastic way to reduce nitrates and phoshates BTW, especially if a protein skimmer is used. I’m thinking you don’t have a protein skimmer, which is why we’re going the water change route instead to remove bacteria. Also, I think UV can work, but it’s hit-or-miss since we’re talking about critters that are propagating in your sand. UV generally works the best on free-floating organisms as they’ll be drawn through the UV far more frequently. I’d imagine you’d have to remove all of your sand, keep it in another system (bucket or whatever) that’s completely blacked out for a month or two while running UV on your tank to kill any spores that are floating around.

 

[Wampatom]

I have similar parameters in my 75 gal tank (nitrate 15ppm, phosphate 1ppm). I have some dinos in my tank but they have not dominated the other algae.

 

[MLaura]

The amount of bacteria we have in our systems is what’s naturally able to be sustained in relation to what else is in the system with it. If other organisms that have a good enough foothold are competing for typically nitrates and phosphates, they can outcompete beneficial bacteria and spread, whether is dinos, cyano or green hair algae. This still holds true after the tank is cycled. The product you mentioned are both bacterial based and I think it’s pretty funny they don’t mention it because I’ll bet most beneficial bacteria strains we use, regardless of the product are exactly the same or at least play the same role. Now imagine a field that had a herd of goats in it. They ate everything and most of them left to find better pastures. Now picture one goat staying behind and being overwhelmed by weeds. What you need are more goats. By adding a carbon source such as vinegar, bacteria will temporarily overpopulate your system and will starve other organisms of resources. The trick is to then remove some of this “gut-loaded” bacteria so they don’t starve and die as well, releasing nitrates and phosphates back into the water. This is also a fantastic way to reduce nitrates and phoshates BTW, especially if a protein skimmer is used. I’m thinking you don’t have a protein skimmer, which is why we’re going the water change route instead to remove bacteria. Also, I think UV can work, but it’s hit-or-miss since we’re talking about critters that are propagating in your sand. UV generally works the best on free-floating organisms as they’ll be drawn through the UV far more frequently. I’d imagine you’d have to remove all of your sand, keep it in another system (bucket or whatever) that’s completely blacked out for a month or two while running UV on your tank to kill any spores that are floating around.

Thank you so much for you answer, is brilliant!!! I have a protein skimmer working very well (and actually is realising some red stuff) I am wondering to use the UV lamp because at night all my Dino disapear form the sand and covering the rocks, I'm assuming they are floating in the water column, so a UV could then work right?

 

[RMS18]

I believe you do have Dino's confidently. I have had 4-5 break outs in my reefing time including a current one. The two species that haunt me are Ostreopsis and Amphidinium. Looking at your pictures they do resemble Ostreopsis which thrive in high nutrients environments. Out of all the Dino's this is the "best" to have. With a good uv you can target them during a black out period. Some can target them during the night over a week or so. Some do a 3 day blackout to keep them in the water for 3 days straight. You can pick up a jeabo 55w for under $100. I wouldn't use this UV permanently, but for Dino outbreaks it's great.

 

[MLaura]

I believe you do have Dino's confidently. I have had 4-5 break outs in my reefing time including a current one. The two species that haunt me are Ostreopsis and Amphidinium. Looking at your pictures they do resemble Ostreopsis which thrive in high nutrients environments. Out of all the Dino's this is the "best" to have. With a good uv you can target them during a black out period. Some can target them during the night over a week or so. Some do a 3 day blackout to keep them in the water for 3 days straight. You can pick up a jeabo 55w for under $100. I wouldn't use this UV permanently, but for Dino outbreaks it's great.

Thank you so much, I'm on the market now for a UV suitable for my 52liters tank I am confident that will work because when the lights are off my tank looks really nice and clean What worries me was the level of toxicity... it really killed all my snails and stars

 

[SMSREEF]

If they leave the sand at night, I bet UV works. I bought a green machine (really ugly and it goes in the tank) and mine were pretty well gone in 2 days. It's certainly worth a shot.

If you live by petco or petsmart you can buy inline and pick up in store for 10%off. There certainly are better looking options but I started with that because I just was not sure it would work.

Best of luck with this, I have no doubt that you will beat it!

EDIT: I got the 24 watt for a 60 gallon. Its about $80

 

[RMS18]

Thank you so much, I'm on the market now for a UV suitable for my 52liters tank I am confident that will work because when the lights are off my tank looks really nice and clean What worries me was the level of toxicity... it really killed all my snails and stars

Leaving the sand is not given they enter the water column. Amphidinium retract into the sand at night, giving the same clean sand look. My lights have been on for 3 hours and my white sand is now starting to turn as I battle amphidinium currently. The fact you said inverts are dying is a obvious sign it's a good chance you have Ostreopsis as this strain is toxic. Dino's are not fun at all and require quick and consistent reaction. Finding out what cause the out break in important. Get all levels back to where they should be and keep stability and they will go away... Waiting for your next slip up lol.

 

[Crustaceon]

Thank you so much for you answer, is brilliant!!! I have a protein skimmer working very well (and actually is realising some red stuff) I am wondering to use the UV lamp because at night all my Dino disapear form the sand and covering the rocks, I'm assuming they are floating in the water column, so a UV could then work right?

I think dinos stay in the sand and on the rocks to an extent after the lights go out seeing as they’ll magically reappear in the exact same places when the lights come on. Could UV take care of what any free-floaters? Sure. Will it be enough? Maybe. I think if we were to see a difference, it might take a few months as theoretically it would gradually cull that population and prevent it from reproducing as quickly. It could be helpful to run the uv at night and dose vibrant or similar in the morning so it’ll have the leg up on the dinos.

 

[GeoSquid]

I've been trying a different approach to my dino situation. I've been fighting them for about 4 months....maybe longer. My issue started when I had a bad outbreak of cyano. I've had this quite a few times over the years and usually just let it work itself out with good husbandry. This time I tried chemiclean....it worked! Then, about 2 months later I got dino's. I feel it was a direct result of using chemiclean and I just traded one thing for the other. I think I prefer fighting cyano over dino's. Anyway...no more quick fixes and I decided to treat dino's like a normal algae succession that happen all the time in our tanks. I was using Algae scrubbing at the time but decided to incorporate more algae scrubbing to my it way oversized for my tank. Since doing this....My dino's have been slowly leaving the display tank and growing in the algae scrubbing system. Rather than scrapping the algae screen, I've just been rinsing in tap water and rubbing with my fingers. The dino's are removed easily and the GHA stays. Now, I haven't beaten dino's yet, but there is very little in my display. I was having to blow off dino's from corals twice a day....now it's more like every third day I'm blowing them off.

 

[taricha]

My dino's have been slowly leaving the display tank and growing in the algae scrubbing system. Rather than scrapping the algae screen, I've just been rinsing in tap water and rubbing with my fingers. The dino's are removed easily and the GHA stays. Now, I haven't beaten dino's yet, but there is very little in my display.

selectively exporting dinos is a great long-term strategy.