Dino ID please

[Jason_1982]

Hello,

I have been battling dinos in my 1 year old reef. I had ostreopsis ovata but over the last few months my UV has beat them. Now I have a second type that is strictly on the sand. I believe it is a form of AMPHIDINIUM. The particular one moves a bit like a rumba vacuum when observed under my scope.

I created my own breeding ground for these pests but running zero phos(hannah) and very low nitrates.

Currently I am doing the dirty method, added pods, live phyto and some sea weed. Nitrates 15ppm phosphate. 0.15ppm. I had to dose both for a few weeks to get it stable.

 

[saltyhog]

There is a huge thread on the nuisance algae forum. If you post it there you can get a positive ID. Tag taricha in the thread. He is the expert on dinos.

I do believe you are correct however. It certainly looks like amphidinium to me. I had exactly the same scenario. Got rid of ostreopsis almost over night with UV then had a major coral crash when amphidinium went crazy. Most difficult to combat of all the dinos IME but it is beatable!

 

[Jason_1982]

There is a huge thread on the nuisance algae forum. If you post it there you can get a positive ID. Tag taricha in the thread. He is the expert on dinos.

I do believe you are correct however. It certainly looks like amphidinium to me. I had exactly the same scenario. Got rid of ostreopsis almost over night with UV then had a major coral crash when amphidinium went crazy. Most difficult to combat of all the dinos IME but it is beatable!

Thanks for the advice. I'll move this post. My sps all seem ok buy my candy cane, pagoda, and lepto all took a hit.

I also have been running carbon and changing weekly ever since I confirmed dinos

 

[Jason_1982]

Thanks for the advice. I'll move this post. My sps all seem ok buy my candy cane, pagoda, and lepto all took a hit.

I also have been running carbon and changing weekly ever since I confirmed dinos

Please delete this post, I created a new one

 

[saltyhog]

Also, how do I MOVE a post?

I believe only Mods can move a post. I'll report the thread with a request to move it to the nuisance algae forum!

 

[saltyhog]

Tag @taricha for positive ID.

 

[taricha]

I had ostreopsis... but over the last few months my UV has beat them. Now I have a second type that is strictly on the sand. I believe it is a form of AMPHIDINIUM. The particular one moves a bit like a rumba vacuum when observed under my scope.

Like a roomba! Best description I've read in a while. Exactly right on amphidinium movement - I'm going to remember to steal that.
Ostreopsis would be very susceptible to UV, and this large cell amphidinium, not at all. So makes total sense that the ostis would disappear, and these would become dominant.

 

[Jason_1982]

Like a roomba! Best description I've read in a while. Exactly right on amphidinium movement - I'm going to remember to steal that.
Ostreopsis would be very susceptible to UV, and this large cell amphidinium, not at all. So makes total sense that the ostis would disappear, and these would become dominant.

Thank you for the input! Would you say that various AMPHIDINIUM strains still work with the same strategy? I haven't found a match on mine exactly so I wasn't sure if its large or small cell

 

[taricha]

Yours is large cell amphidinium.

 

[Jason_1982]

Yours is large cell amphidinium.

Thank you

 

[Wxguy23]

Like a roomba! Best description I've read in a while. Exactly right on amphidinium movement - I'm going to remember to steal that.
Ostreopsis would be very susceptible to UV, and this large cell amphidinium, not at all. So makes total sense that the ostis would disappear, and these would become dominant.

 

[Wxguy23]

How long does it take? My UV 24w has been in my 75 gal for a week...my osteo Dino’s look worse.

NO3 10ppm
PO4 25

 

[Jason_1982]

Yours is large cell amphidinium.

I have an update followed by a question here.

Update is I'm losing...no change in dinos and I have been away a lot so the manual removal stopped and they got worse.

My nitrates now hover close to 10ppm. My chaeto is growing insanely well now my pods are strong and my alk ca mg are all solid. My question is about the .1ppm phosphate.

I now have a lot of hair algae in my DT. The dinos are moving from gravel up to the algae rocks.

Today I tested phosphate with my hanna and it's back down to 0.024. (Falls alot)

My question is do I still add phosphate to get a higher reading or is it possible the phos is locked up and now a lot higher. My biggest concern here is my sps are showing signs of stress and STN and I cant see why.

Additionally I'm adding sponge excel and still see no diatoms so I am continuing to increase.

My normal reaction to the corals issue is to do a water change which I am trying to avoid

Please advise

 

[Jason_1982]

I have an update followed by a question here.

Update is I'm losing...no change in dinos and I have been away a lot so the manual removal stopped and they got worse.

My nitrates now hover close to 10ppm. My chaeto is growing insanely well now my pods are strong and my alk ca mg are all solid. My question is about the .1ppm phosphate.

I now have a lot of hair algae in my DT. The dinos are moving from gravel up to the algae rocks.

Today I tested phosphate with my hanna and it's back down to 0.024. (Falls alot)

My question is do I still add phosphate to get a higher reading or is it possible the phos is locked up and now a lot higher. My biggest concern here is my sps are showing signs of stress and STN and I cant see why.

Additionally I'm adding sponge excel and still see no diatoms so I am continuing to increase.

My normal reaction to the corals issue is to do a water change which I am trying to avoid

Please advise

@taricha

 

[taricha]

you say the dinos are moving up and that corals are starting to suffer. Those two changes say we should re-check the dino type under microscope and ensure that we are looking at the same kind still. Sometimes the populations shift under our feet.
next, I don't like adding pods and phyto. It seems just as likely to make it worse as better. In my personal experience, adding phyto grew pods first and then the dinos overtook the pods and I had a ton of dinos. This is more of a concern the more toxic it is.
A water change once in a while is OK. Take care of your corals.
I would dose PO4. Elevated Nitrate with Phosphate pushing near zero creates coral stress and can affect health. I'd pause on dosing N until P gets back up a bit.
Tank pics?

 

[Jason_1982]

you say the dinos are moving up and that corals are starting to suffer. Those two changes say we should re-check the dino type under microscope and ensure that we are looking at the same kind still. Sometimes the populations shift under our feet.
next, I don't like adding pods and phyto. It seems just as likely to make it worse as better. In my personal experience, adding phyto grew pods first and then the dinos overtook the pods and I had a ton of dinos. This is more of a concern the more toxic it is.
A water change once in a while is OK. Take care of your corals.
I would dose PO4. Elevated Nitrate with Phosphate pushing near zero creates coral stress and can affect health. I'd pause on dosing N until P gets back up a bit.
Tank pics?

Thank you. I will post pics. As far as I can still see the dino is the same. They are more active and much higher density per sample.

My suffering corals should have more explanation here as well. This may totally be unrelated.

1st I had issues with my lps. Multiple lps melted away suddenly and quickly. My 20 head candy cane and others. I attributed this loss to slightly low mg. (Fell to 1240) It got away on me as I did a lot less water changes. After getting the mg up the candy cane perked up but the headache all popped off and died. No idea what happened but sps and zoas all were looking great.

At this time my nitrates still remained about 5 and phosphate around .05. Phosphates fall fast for me.

I continue to vacuum dinos and stay the course and I felt a may have been winning.

1 month forward I was away on business for most of the month. My wife did all my alk/ca/mg tests and all are perfect.

I come home last night to brown gravel(confirmed AMPHIDINIUM dinos but no snott) and lots of small stn on sps.

I did slightly turn my flow down when the lps had issues. But now I brought it back up.

1 last curve ball. 2 weeks ago my bryopsis popped up. I just finished 2 weeks of fluconazole which I've used before.

We dont necessarily need to trouble shoot the stresses corals. I just want that info here for you as well.

So today here is the current status

Alk 8.9dkh
Ca 400
Mg 1430
Potassium 420
Nitrate between 5&10(salifert)
Phosphate. 027(dosed today and will raise)

Skimmer runs 8hrs only at night
25w aqua UV 24/7
Put carbon back in today.

Dinos completely in all sand. I vacuumed it in morning and 100% return by 8pm

Base rock has quite a bit of hair algae

Fuge now has cyano in it now popping up
Fuge has a large ball of chaeto that I trim every 2 weeks

As for pods I do not add any and havent in 4 months. I just noted that I have lots now which to me says my life is coming back.

I have no diatoms under my scope and I am increasing dosages slowly.

Need any more info? I'll grab some pics in the morning

 

[Jason_1982]

@taricha

Pics as request. This is a gravel sample. I'll keep double checking the base rock but to me same ID as before.

Please see my previous post with tank info and parameters.
After some dosing today my Phos is .06 and hopefully climbing

 

[taricha]

You are doing a lot right.
It looks like there might be a mix of amphidinium types there. It wouldn't hurt to continue to run UV, some kinds do enter water. You're comment about higher activity level may relate to that. A 48hr blackout with UV is usually enough to push whatever cells that can swim - into the water. May be worth considering, to see what stays in sand after that.

I would expect if you are knocking out something with an algacide like fluco, then you will usually have other things to take advantage of the released nutrients, at least temporarily.
Ok to continue elevating Si even if no diatom "bloom" appears. The idea is that with Si present, as nutrients become available, Diatoms which are better reproducers than dinos, will get some of that. Instead of dinos getting it all.

Diatoms can usually grow in the same places as dinos and take advantage of whatever local conditions the dinos do.

P that still drops with elevated N, I'd continue to watch. Like I said, don't let P get near zero with elevated Nitrate. Bad effects there.

 

[Jason_1982]

You are doing a lot right.
It looks like there might be a mix of amphidinium types there. It wouldn't hurt to continue to run UV, some kinds do enter water. You're comment about higher activity level may relate to that. A 48hr blackout with UV is usually enough to push whatever cells that can swim - into the water. May be worth considering, to see what stays in sand after that.

I would expect if you are knocking out something with an algacide like fluco, then you will usually have other things to take advantage of the released nutrients, at least temporarily.
Ok to continue elevating Si even if no diatom "bloom" appears. The idea is that with Si present, as nutrients become available, Diatoms which are better reproducers than dinos, will get some of that. Instead of dinos getting it all.

Diatoms can usually grow in the same places as dinos and take advantage of whatever local conditions the dinos do.

P that still drops with elevated N, I'd continue to watch. Like I said, don't let P get near zero with elevated Nitrate. Bad effects there.

Thanks for the tips. I'll keep a close eye on PO3 and nitrates.

I may consider another black out too. I'll keep you posted.

 

[taricha]

Oh and continuing to export will be helpful.
People think because the dinos return that the vacuuming was pointless, but it's not. You are removing dino cells and the material in/around the dino population that support them.
It's very efficient export, it's just not a one and done thing.