Dinoflagellate ID Help Please. Microscope Photos Included.

[Skep18]

I looked at the thread about dinos and see they include links to search for the different kinds but not actual images of them. From looking at searches, my guess is ostreopsis?

 

[Idoc]

Yes, they are ostreopsis dinos.

 

[Skep18]

Yes, they are ostreopsis dinos.

Thank you.

Following this, if anyone is aware of a thread that is specific to these ostreopsis and their treatment, I would be forever greatful if you have a link handy!

 

[andrewey]

Don't have the link handy, but here is some advice for ostreopsis:

1) Raise nitrate to 10ppm or higher, target a phosphate of 0.1.
2) Add a UV sterilizer if possible- plumb into the display directly, not into the fuge
3) Dose a bacterial product (microbacter, Dr. Tims, etc.)
4) Stop carbon dosing
5) Stop collecting skimmate
6) Add biodiversity if possible (a bit of new LR, add some pods, etc.)
7) If you can't install a UV sterilizer, place a large piece of filter floss in the display near a powerhead and rinse daily.
8) Blow the dinos off the corals if you see any congregating
9) Run a ton of carbon and change regularly.

 

[Idoc]

Thank you.

Following this, if anyone is aware of a thread that is specific to these ostreopsis and their treatment, I would be forever greatful if you have a link handy!

Well, I believe you are in luck. Ostreopsis seem to be the easiest to clear out and manage. I've fought against small cell amphidinium and ostreopsis.

The easiest way to clear these out is to hook up a good sized UV sterilizer directly in your DT and returning flow back to the DT. After doing this, run a blackout for a few days to force the dinos into the water column and let the UV do its thing. Run some carbon during the treatment since the dinos can be toxic as they die.

In the meantime, you need to get your nutrients up to a manageable level, if you haven't already. Attempt to dose NO3 to around 5-10ppm and PO4 to around 0.05-0.1ppm. This will allow other competing algaes to take hold over the dinos.

 

[Skep18]

Don't have the link handy, but here is some advice for ostreopsis:

1) Raise nitrate to 10ppm or higher, target a phosphate of 0.1.
2) Add a UV sterilizer if possible- plumb into the display directly, not into the fuge
3) Dose a bacterial product (microbacter, Dr. Tims, etc.)
4) Stop carbon dosing
5) Stop collecting skimmate
6) Add biodiversity if possible (a bit of new LR, add some pods, etc.)
7) If you can't install a UV sterilizer, place a large piece of filter floss in the display near a powerhead and rinse daily.
8) Blow the dinos off the corals if you see any congregating
9) Run a ton of carbon and change regularly.

Thanks for the detailed reply!

I hate to say it but I have been doing all of those items as of late. I only recently (couple of weeks) have been dosing NO3 and PO4 though. I also recently took my carbon offline at the recommendation of R2R members stating its strips water too much.

I suppose I will just stay the course and pray it works eventually, lol...

 

[Skep18]

Well, I believe you are in luck. Ostreopsis seem to be the easiest to clear out and manage. I've fought against small cell amphidinium and ostreopsis.

The easiest way to clear these out is to hook up a good sized UV sterilizer directly in your DT and returning flow back to the DT. After doing this, run a blackout for a few days to force the dinos into the water column and let the UV do its thing. Run some carbon during the treatment since the dinos can be toxic as they die.

In the meantime, you need to get your nutrients up to a manageable level, if you haven't already. Attempt to dose NO3 to around 5-10ppm and PO4 to around 0.05-0.1ppm. This will allow other competing algaes to take hold over the dinos.

Thanks for the help. I have been doing most of this. I think I will try a blackout and see if that helps... I haven't had my nutrients up but for a couple of weeks though so maybe that'll help? Also, other R2R members say running carbon strips the water of elements/something? And recommended me take if offline.

Frustrating, Idk what advice to take. lol.

 

[andrewey]

You 100% want carbon running right now. The ostreopsis will release toxins, moreso when they're dying that can hurt your inverts or sensitive corals.

Lastly, is your UV properly set up? Aim for 1w of UV for every 2-3 gallons and have the flow set to 2-3 times the display tank per hour.

 

[Skep18]

You 100% want carbon running right now. The ostreopsis will release toxins, moreso when they're dying that can hurt your inverts or sensitive corals.

Lastly, is your UV properly set up? Aim for 1w of UV for every 2-3 gallons and have the flow set to 2-3 times the display tank per hour.

Thank you for the advice. I just wish there was a general consensus, lol. Seems as many people say "yes", there are just as many that say "no".

I bought the 40W Pentair unit based on manufacturer sizing recommendations. I established the flow rate based on Pentair recommendations for the higher end of their "Protozoa Bacteria Water Flow Rate".

 

[Idoc]

Thanks for the help. I have been doing most of this. I think I will try a blackout and see if that helps... I haven't had my nutrients up but for a couple of weeks though so maybe that'll help? Also, other R2R members say running carbon strips the water of elements/something? And recommended me take if offline.

Frustrating, Idk what advice to take. lol.

Carbon dosing (ie: Vinegar, Vodka, etc...) helps to reduce nutrients. But running Activated Carbon in a reactor may take away some nutrients, but it is used mostly for removing impurities from your water...hence the reason to run this type of carbon while fighting dinos. You want to remove the dino toxins from the water.

The UV is going to be your best defense against Ostreopsis...and easiest. But, you need a good UV system with good UV power! I'm running an Aqua UV 57w on a 75g tank...only running at 400gph to really give killing power. It cleared my ostreopsis in a few days. I don't recall your tank size, though, if you mentioned it.

The blackout knocks them for a short time, but they always seemed to come back for me. The darkness pushes them into the water column which is perfect if you have the UV setup.

 

[Skep18]

Carbon dosing (ie: Vinegar, Vodka, etc...) helps to reduce nutrients. But running Activated Carbon in a reactor may take away some nutrients, but it is used mostly for removing impurities from your water...hence the reason to run this type of carbon while fighting dinos. You want to remove the dino toxins from the water.

The UV is going to be your best defense against Ostreopsis...and easiest. But, you need a good UV system with good UV power! I'm running an Aqua UV 57w on a 75g tank...only running at 400gph to really give killing power. It cleared my ostreopsis in a few days. I don't recall your tank size, though, if you mentioned it.

The blackout knocks them for a short time, but they always seemed to come back for me. The darkness pushes them into the water column which is perfect if you have the UV setup.

I am familiar with the differences between carbon dosing and activated carbon. Unfortunately this seems to be a topic that R2R cannot agree on, which is unfortunate.

I appreciate your input and don't doubt your experiences but, with all due respect, I am just gonna have to hope the people that build UV sterilizers are familiar with the concept enough to give proper recommendations. Pentair of all manufacturers is known to do larger systems like public zoos and aquariums. What a shame it would be if they didn't know their stuff, lol. Rather than ditching mine and buying a larger one, I think I will just keep mine running.

I have a 210gal DT. Not sure the actual water volume in the system. The 40W is rated for "up to 260gal".

Yea, my thinking was to get them off my rocks with the blackout. I have dealt with dinos before and beat them before. This time they snuck up on me so I am looking a bit deeper into the R2R recommendations. While they started off slow, as of yesterday I brushed them off the rocks and this AM they were back on them albeit much thinner. I will be turning my UV on 24hr a day at this point as well.

 

[andrewey]

In case it wasn't clear, I want to second @Idoc - running activated charcoal ("carbon") is a must. You should not be "dosing carbon" (e.g. vinegar or vodka). I haven't seen a lot of recent advice suggesting not to run carbon with dinos- a lot of that information about stripping the water and causing a dino outbreak was outdated or just conjecture...

 

[Skep18]

In case it wasn't clear, I want to second @Idoc - running activated charcoal ("carbon") is a must. You should not be "dosing carbon" (e.g. vinegar or vodka). I haven't seen a lot of recent advice suggesting not to run carbon with dinos- a lot of that information about stripping the water and causing a dino outbreak was outdated or just conjecture...

I apologize if somehow someone thought I mentioned dosing carbon or I was unclear. I am not dosing carbon.

Again, its not that I necessarily doubt either of you. I just hope you can understand that both sides of the camp have their reasons and will talk about it on threads as to why you should or should not run carbon. I'm afraid that doesn't help me come to a conclusion.

But again, I definitely appreciate the input.

 

[andrewey]

Lastly, you are free to follow whatever advice seems the most applicable, but just know, there isn't a one size fits all for running UV. Those numbers suggested by the manufacturer apply to a very specific set of goals. There are a lot of reasons to run UV and some times the goals of the tool deviate from the intended use. Hence, why you see recommendations that don't seem to line up with the manufacturer. It's not that one is wrong and the other is right- it's just two different goals using the same tool. Apples and oranges

 

[Skep18]

Lastly, you are free to follow whatever advice seems the most applicable, but just know, there isn't a one size fits all for running UV. Those numbers suggested by the manufacturer apply to a very specific set of goals. There are a lot of reasons to run UV and some times the goals of the tool deviate from the intended use. Hence, why you see recommendations that don't seem to line up with the manufacturer. It's not that one is wrong and the other is right- it's just two different goals using the same tool. Apples and oranges

Fair enough. However, to your point, Pentair does have a significantly higher recommended and allowable "Algae & Bacteria Water Flow Rate" which I assume is their specific advice for these "oranges". lol. I can try to increase the throughput to meet this if I continue to see issue.

 

[SMSREEF]

When trying to decide which suggestions are right, ask yourself which makes the most sense.

When it comes to carbon (ROX, Activated, etc)
What is your ultimate goal (not carbon related)?
Kill Dinos.
What happens when you kill dinos?
Release of toxins.
What are you using ROX or activated carbon for?
In my case to remove toxins.

when reading posts of those not using carbon to remove toxins, do you think their logic is right?

by no means am I saying that what I am doing is right. It just made sense to me.

Don’t be confused by carbon dosing (vinegar, vodka)... this is not good because it reduces nutrients. It causes bacteria to grow and use up nitrate and phosphate, leading to low nutrient condition that gives Dino’s the edge.

 

[Skep18]

When trying to decide which suggestions are right, ask yourself which makes the most sense.

When it comes to carbon (ROX, Activated, etc)
What is your ultimate goal (not carbon related)?
Kill Dinos.
What happens when you kill dinos?
Release of toxins.
What are you using ROX or activated carbon for?
In my case to remove toxins.

when reading posts of those not using carbon to remove toxins, do you think their logic is right?

by no means am I saying that what I am doing is right. It just made sense to me.

Don’t be confused by carbon dosing (vinegar, vodka)... this is not good because it reduces nutrients. It causes bacteria to grow and use up nitrate and phosphate, leading to low nutrient condition that gives Dino’s the edge.

I can definitely appreciate this thinking. In the line of work I do, I see a lot of this. Unfortunately, sometimes people try to make decisions with the information available to them and sometimes whats available to them is not enough to make the correct decision. While what you say above makes sense to me, I am admittedly no marine biologist nor a chemist. With situations like this, rather than making an uninformed or under informed decision I try to take advice from formally educated people who know what their industry advises. That said, I do appreciate this is a hobbyist forum and I am not likely to find such credentials on here nor would you know who that would be. Ultimately we all do "what feels best" like you outlined above. I just play devil's advocate to point out everyone who is not a professional in the field should be aware of such I think. That would be helpful for everyone in giving advice to know their own educational limitations and remain open minded that maybe they don't know exactly all that they think they know.

EDIT: Why do posters keep bringing up carbon dosing?! lol. No one should be confusing the two as they are obviously very different.

 

[SMSREEF]

EDIT: Why do posters keep bringing up carbon dosing?! lol. No one should be confusing the two as they are obviously very different.

Because many people write “carbon” and it could be either one.

you were writing about conflicting advice and I thought you may be confused.

good luck with your issues.

 

[Skep18]

Because many people write “carbon” and it could be either one.

you were writing about conflicting advice and I thought you may be confused.

good luck with your issues.

Fair enough. I guess I just figured "running carbon" was synonymous to GAC and "dosing carbon" was likewise for vodka/vinegar/etc. Nonetheless, I appreciate the point to clarify.

Thanks for the good wishes and advice.

 

[SMSREEF]

Fair enough. I guess I just figured "running carbon" was synonymous to GAC and "dosing carbon" was likewise for vodka/vinegar/etc. Nonetheless, I appreciate the point to clarify.

Thanks for the good wishes and advice.

Dino’s are tough... I don’t think any of us claim to be experts or marine biologists. But we all try to help each other best we can.

keep at it and post in the huge dinoflagellate thread when you figure out what works for your tank.