Dinoflagellates - Cause of problems - or because of problems?

[MnFish1]

I have read recently - that dinoflagellates 'kill corals and fish' - I noticed (after months with none) - and after a failed alkalinity doser that some parts of a couple corals died off - On those dead places - some dinoflagellates have started growing. They are not on any other rock, etc - except where the coral died. (well - maybe a couple spots on rocks) - but very few. See the poll and lets discuss? Note - I realize there are many kinds of dinoflagellates - I'm talking about the common brown stringy masses that everyone hates. I mean zooxanthellae are dinoflagellates after all... PS - I'm sure there are cases where dinoflagellates can release toxins - I'm talking usually/ in general

 

[MnFish1]

Im surprised - dinoflagellates are usually a hot topic??

 

[Cory]

Ime dinos just show up when no3 and po4 hit zero. Or sometimes just one. And this usually happens because in the process of getting to zero, hair algae dissapeared. When that happens, watch out! But they colonate organism free surfaces much quicker.

 

[MnFish1]

Ime dinos just show up when no3 and po4 hit zero. Or sometimes just one. And this usually happens because in the process of getting to zero, hair algae dissapeared. When that happens, watch out! But they colonate organism free surfaces much quicker.

Its funny - my nitrates and PO4 are not zero. I think that they can probably overrun a tank - but Maybe people concentrate too much on nitrate and PO4 - because we measure those. To me it might be something else?

 

[Cory]

Its funny - my nitrates and PO4 are not zero. I think that they can probably overrun a tank - but Maybe people concentrate too much on nitrate and PO4 - because we measure those. To me it might be something else?

Yes i dont think the cause is 0 nutrients. I think its because there is no competition because of very low nutrients. They seem to be effective at surviving when other algaes cant.

Fwiw i have a thread i posted a scientific article about dinos and urea being elevated. Perhaps they can directly consume urea. That would be a competitive advantage over hair algae which i haven't read can consume uera.

What do you think is going on? Do you have dinos now? Uv is the only thing keeping them absent. Fwiw uv destroys urea.

 

[MnFish1]

Yes i dont think the cause is 0 nutrients. I think its because there is no competition because of very low nutrients. They seem to be effective at surviving when other algaes cant.

Fwiw i have a thread i posted a scientific article about dinos and urea being elevated. Perhaps they can directly consume urea. That would be a competitive advantage over hair algae which i haven't read can consume uera.

What do you think is going on? Do you have dinos now? Uv is the only thing keeping them absent. Fwiw uv destroys urea.

If I take the entire surface area of my tank (lets say its 100) - <1 percent has Dinos - and they appear only on small areas of coral that has died recently. Not on healthy coral. Thus the poll - because I have heard many people claim that Dinos kill coral. I wondered if it was the opposite - that Dinos merely grow where there is a new 'open' space.

 

[DrZoidburg]

I vote all of the above accept no reason. I think if there is not enough PO4, or out of balance then not enough bacteria growing fast enough, or like you say spots with less bacteria. Then you see these weird algae that are happy to fill the void.

 

[Dan_P]

I have read recently - that dinoflagellates 'kill corals and fish' - I noticed (after months with none) - and after a failed alkalinity doser that some parts of a couple corals died off - On those dead places - some dinoflagellates have started growing. They are not on any other rock, etc - except where the coral died. (well - maybe a couple spots on rocks) - but very few. See the poll and lets discuss? Note - I realize there are many kinds of dinoflagellates - I'm talking about the common brown stringy masses that everyone hates. I mean zooxanthellae are dinoflagellates after all... PS - I'm sure there are cases where dinoflagellates can release toxins - I'm talking usually/ in general

The funny thing about nuisance organism growth is I cannot make it happen outside the aquarium. Under non-aquarium situations I can get good growth. Still scratching my head.

The hobby has a very limited number of tools to define conditions under which photosynthetic nuisance organisms thrive. Of the dozen or so factors that could influence growth, the hobby has two: PO4 and NO3 concentration. Is it any wonder that these measurements appear to be poor predictors of growth?

Another shortcoming of the hobby’s narrative about photosynthetic nuisance organism growth is that it seems to be a entirely surface phenomenon, that is, a biofilm development issue. The hobby has an incomplete grasp of biofilm development and how it is influenced. What exactly makes a biofilm conducive to dinoflagellate or cyanobacteria growth?

Another frustrating thing is that the problem you are having with dinoflagellates today probably started a month ago, making the establishment of the cause-effect connection nearly impossible.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I have read recently - that dinoflagellates 'kill corals and fish' - I noticed (after months with none) - and after a failed alkalinity doser that some parts of a couple corals died off - On those dead places - some dinoflagellates have started growing. They are not on any other rock, etc - except where the coral died. (well - maybe a couple spots on rocks) - but very few. See the poll and lets discuss? Note - I realize there are many kinds of dinoflagellates - I'm talking about the common brown stringy masses that everyone hates. I mean zooxanthellae are dinoflagellates after all... PS - I'm sure there are cases where dinoflagellates can release toxins - I'm talking usually/ in general

All the above are correct IMO. I’ve got a rule of thumbs that most times is correct without doing major testing.

1. No3 zero po4 positive most likely dinos

2. No3 positive po4 zero most likely dinos

3. No3 zero po4 zero most likely dinos

4. No3 positive po4 positive most likely photosynthetic dinoflagellates

solution: for 1. 2. And 3. Increase nutrients first to detectable values and keep them up for 7 days in addition to increase values dosing bottled bacteria. if that doesn’t work go full blackout.
for number 4. I’d go full blackout straight away and add bottled bacteria.

it can’t be more simpler than this. In most cases dinoflagellate appears due to bacterial perish due to nutrient starvation. The best route to getting things back on track IMO is to give the good bacteria food to re establishment in the tank. If you place a rock full of dinoflagellates in a well established tank you will see them perish in days.

edit. Wend I say zero you could also say near zero as most tests are not accurate at those levels of reading.

there’s no need for crazy explanation on dinoflagellates and magic ways to eliminate dinoflagellates this will work always.

Edit: to raise Nutrients you can’t just add extra food in hope to raise them, you need more target ways like potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate or if not comfortable using this ones ATI nutrition that comes premixed.

 

[DrZoidburg]

I can agree its not just po4. This why I vote all of the above. Things like silica, potassium, iron, carbon all sorts of things. Real world example. Not doing anything like add bacteria, change light spectrum, or use removers. This cyano patch, and some dinos would just not go away. Dosed phosphate and kept it there. Also got a few more fish. Those are the only two changes made. Poof guess what never came back. Plus all the little bits in rock cracks died out. This was over two years ago. Reasoning behind this was to get bacteria to fill the void. They need phosphate to replicate. Otherwise things will outcompete them. Also maybe why new tanks see them? Imo maybe hobbyist can't test some things, but they sure can test a lot of things. As well as do some homework the information is out there.