Dinoflagellates or something else?

[Aquaman6410]

Hey all, I made a thread on the newbie forum but didn't get to much feedback on this algae. That thread has all the background info on the tank.
Here is the URL: https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/341236/

Since that post, I stopped doing water changes since it doesn't seem to help at all. No change has happened in about 10 days now. Nitrate at 0 or undectable and phosphate also undetectable. My two clowns and purple Firefish seem fine. I haven't lost any inverts but coral frags appear to be growing slow and being annoyed by the algae. Zoas don't open up a lot and my hammer and torch coral have shrunk in size. Other corals seem to be tolerating it and some growing. Here are some latest macro pics of it. Please let me know what you think I'm dealing with. For any deeper tank details, see my other thread I made. I don't mind answering any questions but just didn't want to type out another novel again

Thanks again everyone for helping a Discus hobbyist get situated in the reef hobby!

 

[sfin52]

I don't know what percentage of folks are having luck battling dinos with any of the methods in the main Dino thread.

Just to refresh folks on the natural alternative...

• Dino's generally gain a competitive edge against their competitors AND their predators in a nutrient-starved environment.
• Phosphate Control
  • DO NOT let your phosphates hit or stay at zero.
  • See: Bacterivory in algae: A survival strategy during nutrient limitation
• Nitrate Control
  • Do not let your nitrates hit or stay at zero.
  • See: Putting the N in dinoflagellates
  • See: A Nitrate Dosing Calculator For Better Tank Health (And Better Coral Color!)
• Starvation should be avoided. Remember that a wide variety of micoorganisms depend on dissolved N and P...and so do corals and healthy algae.
• Confirming the ID of your dinoflagellate is important if possible.
  • To begin with, make sure you have Dinos
  • Use @taricha's dino confirmation guide on posts #986-987.
• Once you know it's dino's you should ideally figure out what type(s) your tank is hosting.
  • A basic 1200x microscope will be useful and doesn't have to be more than $15 toy scope.
    See: Selecting a microscope
  • Specifically for Ostreopsis, consider skipping ahead to post #86 and #905 as the information is still developing.
  • Compare your dino's with photos where @taricha's has already made ID's:
    (Click the link. Then click the SEARCH button at the bottom of the search page.)
    • ostreopsis
    • prorocentrum
    • amphidinium
    • coolia
    • (other searches coming)
• After you get started, What is the End Game?

• Disturbances we cause in our tanks are what allow microbial/algal populations to shift and ugly/harmful blooms to happen.
  • See: Evidence for the Existence of Three Primary Strategies in Plants and Its Relevance to Ecological and Evolutionary Theory

• Take measures to assure that your feeding system is very consistent. An auto-feeder is an overlooked tool on most tanks. Look at Eheim's feeders...set them on low with high quality flake food. Just don't let them run your whole feeding program as flake isn't great food.

• Find out what inconsistencies you can eliminate with your husbandry to prevent more unneeded disturbances and the resulting microbial/algal changes. This could be changes to lighting or water chemistry – make them as consistent as you can.

• E.g. If you're adding new livestock all the time, stop it. If you have a color-tunable light fixture, stop re-tuning the colors. If you don't have an ATO keeping your salinity stable, get one. If you're still managing your dosing by hand, get an $80 4-head doser. Etc.

If you provide the stability, then your dino's competitors will start competing with them and their predators will start eating them!!

One thing that seems to help things progress is to stop scraping down the algae off your glass....once the dino's start giving up space that is. Mechanical removal is a legit short-term strategy and might help give competitors a leg up too.


2¢

Other interesting more-or-less related links on my blog:

• Response of heterotrophic bacteria, autotrophic picoplankton and heterotrophic nanoflagellates to re-oligotrophication
• Viruses manipulate the marine environment
• Extracoelenteric zooplankton feeding is a key mechanism of nutrient acquisition for the scleractinian coral Galaxea fascicularis
• Fish foraging behavior changes plankton-nutrient relations in laboratory microcosms

(Also cross-posted in the main Dino thread!)

This should help. There is a test you can do with out microscope. It is referenced

 

[mcarroll]

I suspect that might be #chrysophytes. Check out some of the posts under that tag and see what you think.

Is the tank pretty new and do you know what led up to the chrysophytes blooming like that?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Mulm. Bacteria , etc. normal stuff.

Time to get the snails in. If it get long , hit it with a tooth brush.

Are you running a granular activated carbon, or other Chem media ?

 

[Aquaman6410]

Thank you all. It's definitely not mulm or bacteria. This is definitely algae or similar organism. The picture was with pumps off and the lighting didn't capture the brownish hue to it. It seems to get really dense on the rocks in direct flow oddly enough. The worst part is the smell. It is a very ocean like smell, almost like low tide when lots of things are washed up at the beach. I've always lived near the beach so that is my best description. But it is not a pleasant smell by any means. I've had cyano in planted tanks before and they was like rotten eggs which this is not like. Not sure if its the same in the reef hobby. Also, this stuff has tons of bubbles in it as well. Hermits, turbo snail, or any other CUC type critters I have won't even touch it. They just move past it.

I'm only running ROX carbon from BRS at the moment, nothing else since my phosphates and nitrates are nonexistent. Ive been feeding heavier but nothing. I'm guessing the low nutrient environment is making this thrive. Perhaps why water changes didn't seem to make a dent in it.

Just a quick summary of the tank from my other thread for anyone who wants the details :

The tank is a 32 gallon Biocube with stock pump, 2 Koralia 425gph powerheads, upgraded Nanobox Retro Plus M LEDs. The tank was fishless cycled with ammonium chloride. The tank was started with "live" sand in a bag and about 25 or so lbs of Reef Cleaners rock. Tank has been running for at least 4 months. It houses a purple Firefish and a pair of Bullethole Clowns. Inverts include a fireshrimp, pom pom crab, and 3 sexy shrimp. There is a small CUC which is 9 blue leg hermits, 4 nassarius snails, and one Zebra Turbo. Everyone gets along great, all are original fish with no loses and I love the tank. I have a few frags that all get dipped prior to being added. I currently have some zoa frags like rastas, bambams, magician and scrambled eggs. All only a couple heads but the magicians are growing fastest now. I have a torch, green hammer, duncan, micromussa, and green star polyps frag (on its on island for now!). All frags seem happy and open except the torch and hammer have shrunk a bit since the algae and are no longer thriving.

I've also purposely started a colony of tisbe pods in the tank. They seemed to reproduce in a huge way a month ago. Now all pods seem to be missing. I added some pods from AlgaeBarn as they say it would help but its now a pod ghost town.

I keep the salinity at 35ppt and used to do a weekly 5 gallon water change weekly with 0 tds RO/DI I make at home and use Fritz RPM salt. I'm currently held on water changes as they seem to aggravate the problem.

I noticed a light issue of what appeared to be this same algae started during the first month or so of the tank after adding my first inhabitants, the firefish and two 3 polyp zoa frags. It then disappeared as fast as it came on its own after a few weeks. Fast forward to when I added my clownfish roughly a few weeks ago, it started again and this time its not leaving. It is also stronger than ever it seems and has a good hold on the tank. Both times it seemed to bloom was around a fish addition, not inverts or anything else. Just an observation if memory serves me right.

Water is currently: Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrates all at 0 using Red Sea tests. Phosphates 0. Alk at 9dkh. Calcium about 430.

Again, all inhabitants are still alive and seem fine except the coral. They are getting aggravated by it and no longer growing, zoas staying closed more, the hammer coral shrinking more and more each day. Some coral like the micromussa frag seem to not be phased as much.

I currently have nitrate and phosphate supplement I'm considering but in the meantime while I wrote my first post above, I blacked out my tank since last night until I could find a better idea as this stuff definitely loves light.

Thanks all!

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Use A canister filter or diatom filter.
Scrub or remove as much as possible.
Feed more and I'd suggest frozen foods. You can also dose n/p . Bring it to closer to reccomded levels over the course of two -three weeks.
Shorten the photoperiod.
Use DT tims one and only.
Do weekly water changes , unless you notice it makes the organism flare up, mostly your working on keeping the ph up. So kalk would also work.
Consider peroxide dosing , or using polyp lab medic, it's also an oxidiser, to kill the unwanted organism.
Consider methods of incorporating microfaunal biodiversity after treatment.

 

[sfin52]

Agree with above. If it is Dino some in low phosphates and nitrates will switch from photo to eating other organisms. They can also release a toxin to control competitors. I would run activated carbon to absorb the toxins if they are being released. Water changes seem to fuel some species of Dino. I would hold off on that. Top of is fine.

Like saltysaid try to remove as misch as possible. I would do remove them from display by siphoning water in to a bucket filter the water through a 10micron sock. They dumping water back into the tank. Uv sterilizer works for some species of Dino but not all.

Adding bacteria back in to the tank and other micro organisms will have to be done. Water changes from a friends tank, adding rock and that kind of stuff will help.

 

[Aquaman6410]

I did add a couple pieces of cured live rock rubble on Saturday because I was desperate to make a dent in the algae but haven't seen any improvement yet.

How short of a photoperiod should I use while not being the coral?

I will feed more and try dosing a slight amount to get something detectable.

I can do water changes, I'm just afraid it will flare it up more since it didn't seem to react at all to the water changes. Also, when I remove it manually its back within a day or two. Grows crazy fast!
I don't have Kalk for the ph but can order some. My ph is about 7.8 - 8.0 hard to tell which with the red sea but I think its more 8.0

The only thing is my alk and calcium seem fine so isn't kalkwasser going to raise that as well? Should I just use baking soda and raise ph to a certain value?

 

[sfin52]

Seachem makes a great po4 product. Start slow and gradually increase. Try not to overfeed to bring numbers up can cause more harm than good. Also it is not measurable.

 

[Aquaman6410]

Yes I have the seachem phosphate and nitrate supplements. I'm going to give those a shot as far as the supplements go. Should I keep the blackout going? Should I do a day, two, three? Or should I not bother with the blackout? If blackout, should I do a water change after and how large? I'm afraid it will fuel the problem again though.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

A three day black out should be fine.

Cut the lights to six.
It's ph you're looking at, kalk doses evenly and has a nice ph boost, and small amounts have little effect on cal and alk. Wc can have a similar effect. If you're wc don't effect the organism that will work for the ph.

What we are trying to do is cut the co2 to the organism. So simple airatiin or a refugium etc may do the same.

It will take time, and a bit of trial and error.

 

[sfin52]

Dino once you get them, treating is a multifaceted approach. At the center of it is the nitrate and phosphates issue. 0 is bad. Corals across the board don’t like o. once you see the numbers coming up your corals will start to look better. Mine did.

Note that usually blackouts don’t work on their own. They will cut the numbers way back but Dino can go to a cyst. Once environment is to their liking they will emerge.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Dino once you getthem treating is a multifaceted approach. At the center of it is the nitrate and phosphates issue. 0 is bad. Corals across the board don’t like once you see the numbers coming up your corals will start to look better. Mine did.

Note that usually blackouts don’t work on their own. They will cut the numbers way back but Dino can go to a cyst. Once environment is to their liking they will emerge.

Exactly.

 

[mcarroll]

I think we still need some kind of dino test from @Aquaman6410 to say dino's for sure.

That's a pretty new tank for as much livestock as you have....that always makes algae issues bigger than they should be. If there's anymore livestocking to do in the tank's future, I'd concentrate on introducing fewer large animals (i.e. fish) at once and spacing them out more.

I would avoid treatments like peroxide, chemiclean, etc....my chrysophytes did not respond to any of them...dino's are unlikely to respond either. And ultimately my chrysophytes went away without a treatment. Stabilizing my tank (including nutrients) and scrubbing (to protect my corals) was really what it took.....plus adding a CUC. I had no CUC for a long time before this algae bloomed, so there was nothing to stop it when it started.

Make sure everything on your system that's not as stable as it could be – salinity, cal/alk, feeding...everything – get's stable.

Use an auto-feeder with your current feeding routine. It will ultimately make controlling and stabilizing your nutrient inputs much more possible AND it will let you spread out feedings into parts of the day when you're not even around. Bonus to your tank across the board. It'll also make incremental feeding changes more manageable and consistent in the future.

Keep up with manual algae removal efforts so it doesn't irritate any corals...or you. But try to relax and let things run their course as you implement these corrections. It didn't get this way overnight, and it might get a little more ugly before it gets more pretty. Life, eh?

Keep your carbon fresh since it would appear that your algae is toxic (so was mine). This should allow your pods to start recovering on their own.

 

[Aquaman6410]

I would be more than happy to do those tests but I wrapped the tank for blackout yesterday. Do you think it would be okay to open it and get algae or should I leave it at this point? Or should not even bother with the blackout as they may come back?

 

[Aquaman6410]

Okay, blackout done. Corals are doing so so, which I expected they wpuld be after 3 days. Algae has definitely taken a nice hit with a large reduction but not totally gone. I stuffed a whole bunch of filter floss in the back before the blackout. Changed it immediately after I opened the tank again. Floss collected some nice amount of gunk. Tested water, phophates and nitrates both still undetectable. I dosed phosphates and Nitrates. Going to set lights to 6 hours. Thinking 1 hour of morning blue setting, 4 hours of midday, 1 hour of evening blues.

I used 1ml of Seachem Phosphorus and 2ml of Seachem Nitrogen. Is this a good amount? More or less?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

You need to test both the n/p in the water now to see how much it went up.

There should be a by volume amount increase on the bottle as well.

 

[Aquaman6410]

What numbers should I target? Those doses if I'm correct were for .05ppm of phosphate and 2ppm of Nitrate. I can test as well.

 

[sfin52]

.1 po4 5 no3. You may need to dose more depending on numbers go slow so you don't over shoot. But your corals color and pe should increase with nutrients back in the tank.

 

[Aquaman6410]

I've been dosing every day the same amount and the tank is currently holding at 2ppm of nitrate and barely readable phosphate. The dino/chrysophytes are still holding. Light period is 6 hours. This algae is a pain. I'm afraid to do a water change because I don't want to feed the issue. Its still growing because I had to clean the glass of it today. I think at this point I'd take any other algae just to get past this! I also added a large magfloat that is covered in a bunch of algae and what not. It came from an 4 year old established mixed reef. I'm trying to stay patient and not give in to this.

Should I add any certain snails to the tank? Anything that will help with this at all?