DinoID Confirmation please - Ostreopsis [Confirmed]

[josephxsxn]

Phosphate 0.14ppm nitrates 1ppm. Dosing 40ml neonitro, 15ml Microbactor7. Cleaned all the glass again today due to dinos on it, toothbrushed affected rockwork too.

Dino-X should get here tomorrow.

 

[josephxsxn]

Dino-X should get here today so I went and found the PDF from their site to prep the tank as per their instructions.

• Using 167 gallons as my water estimate (display is 167gal, but has rock + sump[40gal])
  • 33ml at the 5ml recommended rate.
  • Dosing 1 hour after tank lights out
• Turning the lights off outright for 2 days before resuming them
• Running filter socks/floss with daily cleaning
• Running lights for only 6 hours a day after the 2 day no light period (ill be going back to my old spectrum that included some whitelight.)
• Running skimmer wet and 24/7
• Increasing temperature to 83F (28-29c)
• targeting phosphate to nitrate ratio of 1:100
• No carbon or other medias/resins
• No additives outside of the Brightwell A+B Reefcode
  • worried that this product includes trace elements that the Dino-X recommends to stop
• Getting the water ICP tested
  • recommend checking iodine/fluorine and bromine as a deficiency promotes a dino infection
    • This is kinda interesting to me as I was playing with dosing Iodion (iodide) product before this happened
  • recommend checking Zinc, Nickel, Copper, Vanadium and Molybdenum as well

The instructions warn the clams, sponges, sea urhcins, alage, etc can be damaged by this product and to remove them while treating, lucky for me the clams I have are still in QT. They also recommend running a UV sterilizer as well.

 

[josephxsxn]

Well as one would expect there was shipping delays so it did not arrive. Today I am going to a 6 hour light schedule, and while originally I was going to include my whites the more I read in the Dino-X manual I should forgo them for now.

Going to test the phos and nitrates and dose some Microbactor7 and Clean today. Never dosed Clean before but thinking as it's surface oriented it may help in a different way.

 

[josephxsxn]

Things are still looking good. I have not seen any visable trace of them yet on the rockwork. One leather coral may have some on it but it could also be shedding after all of this. My filter socks are still I'll extra slimy each morning.

Phos was 0.15ppm and nitrates >2ppm

The other day I added 15 ml of Microbactor7 and 120ml of Microbactor Clean.

 

[Christopher Aslett]

This research paper is a good place to start. It discusses the conditions that occur in nature that contribute to blooms.

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._genus_Ostreopsis_in_temperate_areas_a_review

The full-text version is available for free.

The first thing to note is that Ostreopsis cf. ovata forms resting cysts that remain viable for up to five months and will not germinate at 21oC. First, lower your temperature in daily increments to sub 21oC and hold it there for 6 months.

Don’t apply ozone to good water. You’ll produce toxic secondary oxidants that will wreck tour corals and might also kill fish. UV will ineffective against benthic organisms that stay closely associated with substrate. Dinoflagellates are quite large and may not be killed using UV.

The main thing with dinoflagellates is phosphate. Anything that contains phosphate including food, phytoplankton and zooplankton will intensify the bloom. Luckily unlike some harmful algal blooms (HAB), Ostreopsis species appear to produce toxin during their active growth phase. Check the phosphate content of anything you add to the water. You’d be surprised what things contain phosphate. That includes any bacterial supplements. Stop adding iron and manganese as these are essential for chlorophyll production. Check the R/O and everything else that might add phosphate. I located some in a cheap pond filter mat some time ago which was perplexing. It slowly released large quantities over time. Keep your hands out of the system. It releases oils and lowers the ORP. I have an active bloom of Ostreopsis and Porocentrum in an experimental system. I will report back if I encounter any breakthroughs. Low persistent blooms cause some SPS to close. When this occurs use a good quality reef grade prewashed granular activated carbon (GAC) for 48 hours then discard. Blooms of this nature kill macroalgae. That includes Valonia species. It’s not all bad. The bloom should subside once the temperature is curtailed. I have cured very large blooms of dinoflagellates in aquaria where the aquarist had no hair left to pull out. You might not detect phosphate in the water, but it is manifested in the “dino’s” biomass. Assimilated phosphate. Thus, physically removing the bloom reduces the overall content.

 

[Christopher Aslett]

Major Breakthrough as Predicted

If it photosynthesises, then it will respond to proper nutrient management. None of the suggestions of lowering dissolved oxygen and all the other hearsay that has been suggested for eradicating dinoflagellates is bona fide. An optimised system has proper de-gas / re-gas and high concentrations of dissolved oxygen. Anything that compromises that poses a severe risk the health of your fish and corals. Low dissolved oxygen is the cause of cyanobacteria.

Fig 1a. Microscopic images of two genera of poetically toxic dinoflagellates found in the aquarium in Fig 2. Left- Ostreopsis species of dinoflagellate isolated from a glass scrape of an experimental nano reef (Fig 2.). Right- Porocentrum isolated from the same glass scrape. Note the skin-like sheath it has shed beneath.

The majority of “algae" including "dinos” will respond to phosphate limitation. Be aware this includes the zooxanthellae in your corals. You can “crash” them too. Regulating your phosphate concentration to just above 0.015 milligrams per litre (parts per million) will ensure your system runs nuisance algae free. 0.015 mg/l is too low and will cause SPS to first become pastel coloured then die.

Fig 1b. Prior to eradication, the tell-tale signs of dinoflagellates.

Below an experimental nano reef system that had the potentially toxic dinoflagellates belonging to the genera Ostreopsis and Porocentrum (Fig 1a; Fig 1b). The system is optimised with regard to dissolved oxygen and has remained so. All that was necessary to irradicate the “dinos” was a longer column full of granular ferric oxide (GFO) for the calcium reactor effluent to drip through, a glass clean and daily temperature reductions until sub-25oC was attained. A glass scape 24 hours later evaluated with microscopy suggested the dinoflagellates had gone.

Fig 2. The experimental nano reef aquarium 24 hours after the system changes described above. No “dinos” to be seen.

 

[Christopher Aslett]

Supplementary Information

A suspension of bentonite clay in water is efficient at binding dinoflagellates and their toxins (Lewis et al 2003; Sengco et al 2005; Louzao et al 2015). This clay is ordinarily used in koi ponds.

A suspension of any finely divided powder in water is going to cause dissolved oxygen concentrations to plummet. If your system is not optimised. it might cause catastrophic failure of the life support system. However, bentonite doses can be tailored to the system. I suspect that small amounts and heavily skimming will remove many “dinos” whilst binding their toxin. I have not tried this. Try it at your own risk. Read the research papers first.

I have seen saltwater acclimated mollys (Poecilia species) nibble at dinoflagellates and not die. It takes a little time to setup a small freshwater system, allow it to mature for a month then increase the salt content of the water by 2.5 grams per lire per day for 14 days. These fish will browse constantly at algae. I regard them as suitable for pico reefs and “a poor man’s tang”. I have not seen them attack corals. I suspect the nematocysts of corals put them off.

 

[josephxsxn]

So far it does not seem like the dinos have returned. Right now the lights are still on an 6 hour schedule without any whites. Next week the fallow period ends and fish get to go back into the tank (in stages.) My filter socks are no longer loaded up with slimy goop that almost clogs them daily.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Nitrates 2ppm Phosphates 0.06ppm
Dosed 15ml neophos 50ml neonitro 30ml Microbactor7

Don't feel the lack of white light has made a very big change. But the filter socks were loaded with nasty stuff. Still brushing stuff off with a toothbrush daily and changing socks.

Blow loose with a turkey baster. It will capture and clean more surface area. Here is full program:
Prepare by starting with a water change and blow this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles.
Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10-15%) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights. If you dont have light dependant coral- turn all lights off.
During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as bacter 7) per 10 gallons.
Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED CORAL FOODS OR ADD NOPOX as it is food for dinos.
Day 5,, you can start with blue lights - ramping up and work your white lights up slowly

 

[Christopher Aslett]

It is phosphate (PO4) from somewhere. Stop adding anything that isn’t fish food. Feed fish, very, very sparingly. Don’t starve them. Defrost frozen brine/mysis shrimp (any frozen fish food), immediately wash in R/O/ then refreeze. The water it is frozen in is not contaminated. If you leave it to defrost too long it will go black and oxidise. If this happens, discard and start again. Use GFO (Rowa Phos or similar) lots, of it all the time. Test everything you add with a drop or fragment in phosphate free R/O in a Salifert or Merck phosphate test kit. If it goes blue, stop using it. Especially activated carbon. Test your R/O top up and salt mix. Some salts include phosphate. Don’t use them. Make sure the membranes are intact on your R/O or the shop’s R/O. etc, etc. Keep going until you find the source of phosphate (PO4) then stop adding it. Simple. Regulate PO4 to 0.02 mg/l. You’re good to go. Enjoy your hobby. I’ve kept marines for over 40 years. Had my own shop and qualified at post graduate level. This works!

 

[Christopher Aslett]

Update. The aquarium looks just about the same pretty devoid of diversity albeit no major signs of dinoflagellates. I performed another glass scape and examined under the microscope today. Turns out there are some Ostreopsis but also Nitzschia diatoms I have seen in new tank syndrome. There were also some signs of green algae. Good news, the diversity is recovering.

I am concerned because the macroalgae I have has regressed. In Italy, Ostreopsis caused a huge crash of benthic microalgae. The reference is in research literature. It escapes me for now. If you need it, PM me. I have a cunning plan. I have ordered some sodium silicate (water glass) and intend drip-feeding a low diluted amount into the system once or twice a week to create a diatom bloom (Holmes-Farley 2003). That hopefully will outcompete the dinoflagellates then it should cycle. I’ll let you know goes it goes.

RE: Previous post, Porocentrum, just realised it has an extra “r”, making it rather difficult to pronounce in Latin: Prorocentrum. Schoolboy error… Chris

 

[josephxsxn]

Tests as of today are Phosphates 0.3 ppm and Nitrates 16ppm. I have not seen any signs of dinos after my blackout ended. Still slowly ramping the photo period of the lights up from 6 hours toward the normal 12 hours I used; today its at 10 hours. Still only using blue lights without white. Temperature is 79-80f.

In better news the 78 day fallow period for my tank is also over and all fish have been returned to the display!

 

[Christopher Aslett]

Tests as of today are Phosphates 0.3 ppm and Nitrates 16ppm. I have not seen any signs of dinos after my blackout ended. Still slowly ramping the photo period of the lights up from 6 hours toward the normal 12 hours I used; today its at 10 hours. Still only using blue lights without white. Temperature is 79-80f.

In better news the 78 day fallow period for my tank is also over and all fish have been returned to the display!

Hi,

This may seem a little dogmatic but I am trying to help you. 0.3 ppm phosphate is far too high. You should be less than 1/10th of that. They will come back immediately especially if Ostreopsis. Reduce the phosphate, find the source and stop adding it and they will go away. Figure out what you are doing to have so much phosphate and get it to the right concentration. 0.02 ppm ideal. Test everything until you find the source.

That "bottle of stuff" the bloke in the "fish shop" said keep putting in, STOP!

 

[josephxsxn]

I would suspect no water changes the entire duration of the dinos would have some impact, including higher nitrates and phosphate. But I also suspect high levels of it in my rock based on experiences in this thread. Controlling phosphates is simple enough with some lanthanum chloride.

Did I unlock all the phosphate from 100#s of live rock?

Hi, @Randy Holmes-Farley Several months ago I did a tank clean up. I pulled all the rocks one by one, soaked them in straight vinegar for at least 15-20 minutes, washed, rinsed, and put back into the reef. My question, is it possible that at 2.5ph, the vinegar has unbound phosphate from my...

www.reef2reef.com

I'll be sure to update here as I continue to resume my photo period schedule and let you all know if they come back.

Edit--- I suspect sometimes that the lanthanum chloride could be why I got dinos to start with, possibly overdosing and driving phosphates zero on accident. Saddly can't confirm as other changes were also ongoing then too

 

[Christopher Aslett]

If the system has been fallow for months then all the fish have gone back in overnight, I would be more concerned about ammonia and nitrite. You’ll have no maturity. I hope that isn't the case.

If it is a fish only system and you've got Ostreopsis then the only way forward, because you will never get the PO4 low enough, is to sterilise the entire system obviously without fish in. You can cap the nitrate in a fish system at 90 ppm with a 10 percent water change every week. You can breed clowns and raise the young at 90 ppm NO3 and you can feed the system up to five times a day. That’s what fish and the system requires. When you’ve got maturity of course…You may get a slight algal bloom at 1 ppm PO4 but that should be it. Do not strongly illuminate.

If it’s a reef. Get 500 gram of Kent Phosphate Sponge, force water through that for 24 hours. Then get a very large, fluidised reactor, throw 500 grams of Rowa Phos in it and run twice the system volume through it an hour. Change the Rowa Phos every month. Job done. Stop adding PO4 from weird sources. Test Everything. Enjoy your hobby.

 

[josephxsxn]

If the system has been fallow for months then all the fish have gone back in overnight, I would be more concerned about ammonia and nitrite. You’ll have no maturity. I hope that isn't the case.

Indeed it's not! Fish were staged back into the display tank with small fish first and then 6 days later for tangs. The tank did get some very light food during the fallow to feed the serpent seastar and other inverts to try and prevent a complete reset of the biological filter.

Appreciate your help, and everyone else who as offered advice so far. Will slowly start to bring the PO4 back to earth.

 

[Twitchy]

the Reef2reef Dino thread is a good read.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-–-are-you-tired-of-battling-altogether.293318/

keeping NO3 and PO4 above zero combined with Lights out, H2O2, and microbactor7 is pure magic for ostreopsis.

 

[Christopher Aslett]

the Reef2reef Dino thread is a good read.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-–-are-you-tired-of-battling-altogether.293318/

keeping NO3 and PO4 above zero combined with Lights out, H2O2, and microbactor7 is pure magic for ostreopsis.

Have you had any experience with it and macroalgae? The diversity in your system plummets and your macroalgae die. Yes you can get the dinos down to a mere handful by restricting nutrients. That is child’s play, however, they screw up the systems diversity and it is really difficult to get it back. Their toxins have many deleterious effects.

I suggest anything that comes out of a bottle is going to add phosphate and aid their growth. Not curb it. Magic potions never work. If you think you can suspend aerobic autotrophic microorganism in a bottle, think again. If you think you can have any microorganisms (heterotrophs) in a bottle and not have that liquid swimming in nutrients, think again. If you think you can have microorganisms suitable for both freshwater and saltwater in a bottle, think again. It is probably the potion that contributed to the initial bloom. Dinoflagellates not a problem. Ostreopsis is a different kettle of... I suggest they might not have Ostreopsis or they have not noticed their macroalgae and diversity has diminished. They are no doubt just pleased their tank no longer looks like Ghost Busters.

If the methodology suggested in your link worked for you, please tell us how with photographs. I am both willing to admit where I am wrong and learn.

 

[Twitchy]

Have you had any experience with it and macroalgae? The diversity in your system plummets and your macroalgae die. Yes you can get the dinos down to a mere handful by restricting nutrients. That is child’s play, however, they screw up the systems diversity and it is really difficult to get it back. Their toxins have many deleterious effects.

I suggest anything that comes out of a bottle is going to add phosphate and aid their growth. Not curb it. Magic potions never work. If you think you can suspend aerobic autotrophic microorganism in a bottle, think again. If you think you can have any microorganisms (heterotrophs) in a bottle and not have that liquid swimming in nutrients, think again. If you think you can have microorganisms suitable for both freshwater and saltwater in a bottle, think again. It is probably the potion that contributed to the initial bloom. Dinoflagellates not a problem. Ostreopsis is a different kettle of... I suggest they might not have Ostreopsis or they have not noticed their macroalgae and diversity has diminished. They are no doubt just pleased their tank no longer looks like Ghost Busters.

If the methodology suggested in your link worked for you, please tell us how with photographs. I am both willing to admit where I am wrong and learn.

I'm not sure how much the microbactor7 helps in the process, but I am a fan of the results.

Long story short, NO3 overdose lead to PO4 plummet, and the bloom from hell in the frag system. I Got my PO4 back up, my NO3 back down, and then hit them with the dino thread process. made quick work of the dinos, and got things back on track. Green cyano, and Ostreopsis seem to be extremely sensitive to H2O2 (1ml of 3% per 10 gallons) I didn't think that it would do much at such a small concertation, but the ORP readings don't lie. At first I was confused as to why it would drop upon addition of the H2O2 instead of raising my ORP, but I then realized the drop was from the die off of each dose. (I was sure to run carbon as well to deal with potential Ostreopsis toxins)

It was even lifting the rock up on the egg crate

little guy was not happy

My best shot of the little buggers

ORP dips adding the peroxide

a few days after the lights came back on.

 

[Christopher Aslett]

Thanks for the post,

It is no surprise that that highly sterilising H2O2 began to kill things. It is very toxic. However, only around 0.04 mg/l. The giggling of nutrients you describe makes no sense to me. both N and P are required for a bloom. So must have had elevated one and sufficient of the other for the bloom to occur. They should be both low 0.02 mg/l.

How many doses of H2O2 did that take?

How far apart?

Have you seen any green or coralline algae growth since?