dinos/Algea problems that I can't solve

[reeferfoxx]

Ok guys long overdue update. I have been maintaining a .07PPM P04 level but having a hard time keeping my NO3 above 0PPM. I now have Green hair algae all over my tank. It appears the chrysophytes/dinos have been taken care of. How do I deal with the hair algae? Is this likely due to my NO3 being at zero?

You are at the point now where you need to let nutrients do it's own thing. However, I would maintain 2ppm of no3 for the duration of the hair algae. As far as the hair algae goes, you need to manually remove it with water changes. I use a ridged air line hose as a siphon and use a pinch pull method to remove the algae. This limits water reduction and maximizes gha removal. Also, it doesn't matter what rate of removal you choose. You can do weekly or every other day if you choose.

 

[mdd1986]

You are at the point now where you need to let nutrients do it's own thing. However, I would maintain 2ppm of no3 for the duration of the hair algae. As far as the hair algae goes, you need to manually remove it with water changes. I use a ridged air line hose as a siphon and use a pinch pull method to remove the algae. This limits water reduction and maximizes gha removal. Also, it doesn't matter what rate of removal you choose. You can do weekly or every other day if you choose.

Cool. I'm guessing this is sort of the next step in getting the tank stabilized?

 

[reeferfoxx]

Cool. I'm guessing this is sort of the next step in getting the tank stabilized?

Yes exactly. Many people forget or don't realize that hair algae needs to establish at one point or another. It's a way to reduce bound nutrients, reduce co2, and to diversify bacteria. Once hair algae isn't competing for nutrients, your bacteria can start doing it's beneficial job. And just to add to removal, if possible you can remove it all at once. Though I don't know how much is there so I gave you multiple options. I've taken several routes to remove including starving it out. However, nothing beats manual removal. You'll notice the tank improve quickly after.

 

[cracker]

And more snails ! Thanks for this very good thread. I'm kinda having the same issues.

 

[Brew12]

Ok guys long overdue update. I have been maintaining a .07PPM P04 level but having a hard time keeping my NO3 above 0PPM. I now have Green hair algae all over my tank. It appears the chrysophytes/dinos have been taken care of. How do I deal with the hair algae? Is this likely due to my NO3 being at zero?

Fantastic!

Glad you have gotten the hard part done!

 

[brandon429]

Can you post an update full tank picture

 

[mdd1986]

yes I will post when i get home. I manually removed it a few times but man this stuff is a real pain to get off. I have to sit there with a toothbrush to scrub it. Is it normally this hard to remove? I may invest in a sea urchin and more snails. I have a kole tang in there now but doesn't seem to bother with it.

 

[brandon429]

Im about to interject a method to kill it, not coax it out. Yes, the fact you are toothbrusing means you are willing to work and access the tank, and that alone will stop your invasion. To guide out an invasion through nutrient tuning may work, and then it trades off for new invasions since we didn't handle clouding in the sandbed, or on the rocks, per pics Ill be able to tell.

In fact, your nutrient tuning is really great because once we kill it, that tuning if done right will prevent growback, as it should.

Tuning shouldn't be used to remove established growths, we're about to consider a totally different way to have that done two pages ago. can't wait to see pics.

Algae being allowed to sit there begets more algae, bc it traps detritus for on-site degredation, regardless of how you test for greater water params.

Algae left in place is the problem, its not nutrients, if your top of water is passing normality. cant wait to see pics

all you have to do is apply a cheat right when you are scrubbing, and watch that growback stop this time. We had four pages to lick an invasion via hands off, the hands on tuners want a go. after pics a comin'

water tuning is powerful, but not complete without the right type of direct kill, which accts for species invasion that are not connected to nutrients.

Hand removing alone actually can work without nutrient tuning, see any pico reef made under 2 gallons, they're all using the same approach and they don't post N and P readings. Hand clearing a tank until coralline and coral flesh take over does exclude future invasions, since those are bio rejecting surfaces.

even before pics, I bet no gha is expressing in the center of a candy coral polyp where flesh is...it'll be on the skeletal part.

some types of dinos and cyano can blanket a coral, but anchored invaders don't, they seek an exposed skeletal projection to grab onto. by packing in coralline and coral, or just buy buying live rock that already has tons of coralline, you are bio rejecting and providing the base competitor food web that water nutrient tuners like to eventually boost when they offer to adjust nitrate and phosphate, theyre tuning micro animals in the end by allowing them to feed on balanced N and P and the algae planktors those balances confer to the system, and hopefully the micro animals keep the invader at bay and under competition for space and resource.

all we do in my system is kill the target, and its holdfasts, then nutrient tuning hopefully suppresses all grow back.

 

[mdd1986]

Here are some updated pictures

 

[brandon429]

Excellent update pics

That’s one of the few systems easy to fix without ripping the sand bed out and cleaning it

If you lifted out a test rock and just poured peroxide across it that stuff would die by the weekend and the cuc would be all over it

If those pics above are post- treatment which I don’t think they are, then that’s a highly resistant strain and rasping would still kill it. And is easily proven in a small test patch.

99% solvable by Saturday depending on actions today.

-after- the rock has been unplugged of algae, the pores and animals then begin expressing more detritus back out, this is your hand guiding phase


Pent up live rock becomes retentive and removing its covering yesterday begins to increase surface area in your tank again, you have an easy invasion to beat, its of no challenge. It’s also totally valid to leave it in more time and practice guiding it out only through water and nutrient actions, that works but it sure takes a long time to express waste as it’s still building it up as we wait for naturally earned die off. I like to cheat so that in five weeks those rocks are packed with lps, not just beginning the dieoff of the algae.

Your tank is featuring alternation of generations of invaders and it’s related to always leaving detritus in the system as both hiding spots + feed vs removing all clouding and fighting any invader from the distressed-mass condition.

Algae left in place is a catch wick matting frond grabber of: detritus. Then it degrades on site for easy uptake. The new masses exclude coralline algae, but when coralline becomes the dominant mass by us killing its competitor it will exclude algae and favor coral implantation. Hand guiding gives many hidden benefits, it’s just hard to wield on a large system.

Rake a stick across those rocks with no circulation on for proof. mini cloud of detritus comes off in the water

That’s why you can test well in the water but still be growing untended algae, it has very little to do with your circulating water params and pretty much only to do with nutrients you can see without a test kit. I know you may not want to kill it out, the water tuning way is handy knowledge especially for large tankers, just wanted to state the biology picture associated with the hand cleaning process in case any readers do want to run it.

 

[mdd1986]

so you are saying I should use prexiode to kill this stuff? Removing the rocks isn't really an option since they are all cemented together. I removed manually once before but it has come back rather quickly.

 

[brandon429]

It's worth it to at least test to see, if you lift them out for a test you don't have to scrub any, pour peroxide from a new unopened bottle across a test section, let sit in air 3-4 mins and you don't even need to rinse just set it back in. If it doesn't wow in two days then no harm, but per our peroxide thread it will wow

Then upscaling to rest of the tank is a choice at that point, but to at least know what works as an ace in the hole makes your tank turnaround strategy different than guessing or waiting for total system compliance. In the end, cleaning work for the sandbed and rocks is indicated, but you can know ahead of time in the pre test if all that work is worth it, the last scrub attempt shows great resolve, rare among reefers.

It was only missing that one modelable kill step

You could easily drain water down to rock tops, expose those, leave rocks in tank, treat, refill. Any creative way, worth knowing. Here's others doing the work with after shots. Last page has some nice ones from an invader much tougher than yours, yours will ghost white in 36 hours or less.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/reef2reef-pest-algae-challenge-thread-hydrogen-peroxide.187042/

 

[mdd1986]

Hey gang, its been a while. I started to lose interest in this tank just because its been nothing but problems and its really depressing. I have lost about 70% of the corals i purchased (not that is was a ton stuff but maybe $300 worth).

My current situation is I'm stilling battling algae issues on my rock and corals with very little growth of coraline. I recently did a fluconazole treatment which seemed to help somewhat but ended up being a band aid fix. The situation I had back in August is still the same now.

Current tank Parameters 6 hours after heavy feeding:
PH 8.0
Alk: 7.5
Calc:350
Nitrate:0 (zero on both red sea and salfert kits)
Phosphate: .132 (usually hovers around .05-.06) using hanna checker
Mag: 1500
Dosing:
6MG daily of Triton 2 (Calc)
8MG Daily of Triton 3A and 3B (Alk)
Stopped dosing triton 1 due to mag being elevated.
Using Fritz RPM salt.

My Alk and Calc are low for some reason and I have very little coral in the tank.

My Nitrate reading always says zero. I have no idea why. I feed daily but I only have 1 tang in the tank for bio load. I lowered my photo period for the fuge to 6 hours at night. I have a feeling all this algea is just sucking out the nuttiness before the fuge can even get online. I have very little cheato growth in the last months.

What should I do? Should I change up my setup? Ditch Triton? Not use a fuge? Start over with live rock? What about my lighting schedule should I change that? I don't really no what I'm doing anymore honestly. Nothing seems to be working. Really appreciate any help. Also if anyone is local to me also willing to discuss things in person and have someone come check out my setup.

 

[cracker]

Sorry this has happened to You Good You didn't give up. Have you considered breaking it all down ,breaking out the cash & starting over with live rock? I know you can get good fresh LR from TBS or another place in the Fl Keys. don't know the name. Good Luck !

 

[brandon429]

Where are the proponents of hands off invasion tuning??? June-August was lively. @saltyfilmfolks

@reeferfoxx



Mdd
Did you do the test rock actions mentioned, we’d know by now what models well for your system if so. the test rocks respond in 48 hours per this thread
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/reef2reef-pest-algae-challenge-thread-hydrogen-peroxide.187042/

 

[mdd1986]

yes that has been a consideration. Its only a 40 gallon tank and wouldn't really be that much work to remove the rock and start over with live rock.

I figured I would do that if things don't clear up by December as that will be the 1 year mark since setting up the tank.

Most of the people I know in the LFS business around here all say to stay away from dry rock. Its nothing but headaches. I have to agree but its frustrating when watching BRS videos and how easy they make it look using dry rock.

I have to say I'm pretty disappointed both BRS and Triton they have offered very little support or guidance. Not that I can blame them just kind of adds to the frustration.

 

[mdd1986]

Where are the proponents of hands off invasion tuning??? June-August was lively. @saltyfilmfolks

@reeferfoxx



Mdd
Did you do the test rock actions mentioned, we’d know by now what models well for your system if so. the test rocks respond in 48 hours per this thread
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/reef2reef-pest-algae-challenge-thread-hydrogen-peroxide.187042/

I'm fairly certain it started out as chrysophytes and now it has transitioned to turf and hair algea.

What should I do moving forward to deal with this stuff

 

[brandon429]

Water actions like nutrient boosting can work, but some invasions require assistance in mass removal to succumb

it’s why I think all invasions should be hand guided out first time detected, base all water nutrient tuning on growback prevention solely, not as removal. When the two systems align in that way, it’s powerful.

If you want to start over then use live rock and create a scape you are willing to access and clean by hand, outside of tank, as the final say whenever that’s required. That change alone means you can’t be invaded again on the redo

For this tank here? We like good challenges in the threads linked above, I’d start by you removing the sandbed and we battle by cleaning out the rest. Put in cleaned rocks, cleared of detritus. Hand cleaned of invader, back on glass. No sand till rocks comply, rinsed sand goes back, peroxide treat rocks while externally cleaned. Even if you do restart, which I wouldn’t, manual attempts need to be tried here in prep for next tank invasion, practice wielding affect, and because of the current investment, with a start over its simple/always externally clean and access if needed/ but for current tank, whipping it into shape is like hittin the gym

that rascal gets cleaned out, we burn out calories vs store, force remove detritus fat, and yell at it to move faster as it sweats leaning over a rail pleading for lesser pace.


The tank cleaners are supposed to show up during the full on invasion, they reset your tank so you don’t take months for a one day event. (tank cleaners advocate taking your stuff apart and cleaning it fully detritus free and fully invasion free and waiting for nothing else to do just that)


The water tuners ideally show up after, they use artful control of chemistry and competitor balance to make rip cleaning not needed again in the future, the two systems in order equal no invasion. The two systems apart equals the current state of marine tank invasions for every reefer including my first pico reef that got killed by red algae. We should attempt to kill your invader in battle. Dental quality tank clean. No sand, calculated custom dose of peroxide on the cleaned system three times a week for one week. If that doesn’t change it, the mass itself w be greatly attacked and water tuners job isn’t ninetyfold

Do a test rock

Pull out a rock, hand clean all that off by rinsing alone and scrubbing and rinsing till clean. Pour peroxide on rock across clean surface rock let sit three mins

Rinse more

Put rock back in, it sits among the others over time so that you can look for signs of growback, or the 50% possible one off kill. Test modeling makes you take control over at least one surface, so that we can see if control works on it

 

[mdd1986]

Water actions like nutrient boosting can work, but some invasions require assistance in mass removal to succumb

it’s why I think all invasions should be hand guided out first time detected, base all water nutrient tuning on growback prevention solely, not as removal. When the two systems align in that way, it’s powerful.

If you want to start over then use live rock and create a scape you are willing to access and clean by hand, outside of tank, as the final say whenever that’s required. That change alone means you can’t be invaded again on the redo

For this tank here? We like good challenges in the threads linked above, I’d start by you removing the sandbed and we battle by cleaning out the rest. Put in cleaned rocks, cleared of detritus. Hand cleaned of invader, back on glass. No sand till rocks comply, rinsed sand goes back, peroxide treat rocks while externally cleaned. Even if you do restart, which I wouldn’t, manual attempts need to be tried here in prep for next tank invasion, practice wielding affect, and because of the current investment, with a start over its simple/always externally clean and access if needed/ but for current tank, whipping it into shape is like hittin the gym

that rascal gets cleaned out, we burn out calories vs store, force remove detritus fat, and yell at it to move faster as it sweats leaning over a rail pleading for lesser pace.


The tank cleaners are supposed to show up during the full on invasion, they reset your tank so you don’t take months for a one day event. (tank cleaners advocate taking your stuff apart and cleaning it fully detritus free and fully invasion free and waiting for nothing else to do just that)


The water tuners ideally show up after, they use artful control of chemistry and competitor balance to make rip cleaning not needed again in the future, the two systems in order equal no invasion. The two systems apart equals the current state of marine tank invasions for every reefer including my first pico reef that got killed by red algae. We should attempt to kill your invader in battle. Dental quality tank clean. No sand, calculated custom dose of peroxide on the cleaned system three times a week for one week. If that doesn’t change it, the mass itself w be greatly attacked and water tuners job isn’t ninetyfold

Do a test rock

Pull out a rock, hand clean all that off by rinsing alone and scrubbing and rinsing till clean. Pour peroxide on rock across clean surface rock let sit three mins

Rinse more

Put rock back in, it sits among the others over time so that you can look for signs of growback, or the 50% possible one off kill. Test modeling makes you take control over at least one surface, so that we can see if control works on it

Do you think the issues is my nitrates at zero? I think the problem is that this rock has no hardened surface like live rock so algae will always grow on it fairly easily. What about the fuge should I take it off line for a few days or leave it as is?