Dinos or Cyno?
- Thread starter Caruso86
- Start date
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Alexreefer
Coral, Coral, Coral!!!
I believe I see bubbles so if that is true then yes its dinos.
sfin52
So many pedestrians so little time
Welcome to reef2reefI don't know what percentage of folks had luck battling dinos with any of the methods in the old Dino thread but it's obviously a very low percentage, so I'd like refresh folks on the natural alternatives and lay out three areas of info:
Let's get started!
- some of the factors that contribute to a dino outbreak
- how to avoid common dino outbreaks
- and what do if your tank is already having an outbreak
Common Contributing Factors
Some of the most common factors that contribute to the dino outbreaks we cover in this thread are:
These four factors, or excess nutrient removal generally, play – usually in combination; rarely just one factor alone – pretty directly into dino's conversion to the blooming, phagotrophic, mat forming, toxin-producing side of their nature.
- the tank being new, rock being immature or the tank being otherwise highly disturbed, such as by other harsh tank treatments
- hard core nutrient reduction tools being used, such as
- organic carbon dosing
- excess "bio media"
- algae filtration
- nutrient adsorbing media like GFO
How To Avoid Having A Dino Outbreak
- Starvation Is Their Cue
- Dino's seem to prefer life as autotrophic epiphytes on macro algae – chaeto morpha seems to be one of their favorite types to host in. (Maybe this fact can be useful to us; maybe sometimes chaeto ought not be used, or used with special consideration)
- For several reasons, dino's seem to be terrible at nutrient uptake. This means they are more prone to starvation than many or most other microorganisms they have to compete with.....especially bacteria, which can scavenge free nutrients down to CRAZY low levels...low enough to starve out other microbes or algae.
- With their protective mucus mats, potential to generate wicked toxins, and ability to survive not only by way of photosynthesis and dissolved nutrients, but alternately, when times get tough, by "eating their neighbors". (The least of their tricks.)
- Dino's generally gain a competitive edge against their competitors AND their predators in a nutrient-starved environment. Keep reading!
In a nutshell, here's how to avoid dino outbreaks and begin to normalize your tank if you already have an outbreak:
What to do if you're tank is already having a dino outbreak
- Phosphate Control
- DO NOT let your phosphates hit or stay at zero.
- See: Bacterivory in algae: A survival strategy during nutrient limitation
- Nitrate Control
- Do not let your nitrates hit or stay at zero.
- See: Putting the N in dinoflagellates
- See: A Nitrate Dosing Calculator For Better Tank Health (And Better Coral Color!)
- Starvation conditions (zero or near-zero nitrate or phosphate levels) should be avoided.
- Keep in mind that dissolved nutrients are not "waste products" to be eliminated
- They are nutrients for the critters you care about like corals
- The are also nutrients for a potential multitude of mostly-unknown/anonymous microbes that are needed to bring stability to a new tank.
- Once excess nutrients have an impact, in fact, they usually can't be simply eliminated with media anyway – they've probably already had an impact on the tank's microbial cycle. (See blog link #3 at bottom.)
- This all adds up to skipping almost all "extra" nutrient removing steps during the tank's initial development. This period seems to be especially critical, and longer in a tank started with dry, dead rock. Don't use anything until it's absolutely needed and other options have been fully exhausted...and be conservative with how you apply any nutrient removing tool.
When attempting to control an organism like a dinoflagellate, confirming the ID will help, if possible:
- So to begin with, make sure you have Dinos – you should have multiple factors at work...these factors were mentioned in the first section above. The less these factors seem to describe your tank, the less likely any of this advice will be correct for your situation – so post questions!
- Once you have confirmed that you have dino's you should ideally figure out what type(s) your tank is hosting. (Multiple species blooms seem almost as common as single-strain blooms.)
- A basic 1200x microscope will be useful and doesn't have to be fancier than a $15 toy scope. Even a $50 scope is a lot nicer, if you think you might be more serious about it.
- See: Selecting a microscope for more discussion.
- Compare your dino's with photos where @taricha and @Beardo have already made ID's:
- (Click the link. Then click the SEARCH button at the bottom of the search page.)
- ostreopsis
- prorocentrum
- amphidinium
- Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods (they are unique and somewhat more experimental)
- coolia
- (other searches coming)
So, after you get a measure of control, make sure you read What is the End Game?
- Extra Measures
Generally, these tools will give extra control in terms of removing and/or killing cells in the water column....usually, along with other measures explained here, expediting the close of the dino bloom.
- UV
You can find discussions throughout the thread by using this search, with a great breakout of spec's on post #3770.- Diatom Filtration
Effective, but not that popular. The more common units like the classic Vortex are somewhat difficult to use, and the newer units like the new Marineland Polishing Filter are relatively unknown. Still worthy of consideration.
Miscellaneous Goodies
- Post #2725 has a great diary of tank observations, test results and time-series graphs during the treatment for dino's from one of our members.
- Disturbances we cause in our tanks are what allow microbial/algal populations to shift and ugly/harmful blooms to happen.
- Take measures to assure that your feeding system is very consistent. An auto-feeder is an overlooked tool on most tanks. Look at Eheim's feeders...set them on low with high quality flake food. Just don't let them run your whole feeding program as flake isn't great food.
- Find out what inconsistencies you can eliminate with your husbandry to prevent more unneeded disturbances and the resulting microbial/algal changes. This could be changes to lighting or water chemistry – make them as consistent as you can.
- E.g. If you're adding new livestock all the time, stop it. If you have a color-tunable light fixture, stop re-tuning the colors. If you don't have an ATO keeping your salinity stable, get one. If you're still managing your dosing by hand, get an $80 4-head doser. Etc.
- If you provide the stability, then your dino's competitors will start competing with them and their predators will start eating them!!
2¢
- One thing that seems to help things progress is to stop scraping down the algae off your glass....once the dino's start giving up space that is. Mechanical removal is a legit short-term strategy and might help give competitors a leg up too.
Other interesting more-or-less related links on my blog:
(Also cross-posted in the old Dino thread!)
- The role of nutrients in decomposition of a thecate dinoflagellate
- Effects of organic carbon, organic nitrogen, inorganic nutrients, and iron additions on the growth of phytoplankton and bacteria during a brown tide bloom
- Response of heterotrophic bacteria, autotrophic picoplankton and heterotrophic nanoflagellates to re-oligotrophication
Caruso86
Community Member
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Ive had the tank for 3 months but it was setup prior. Used his existing rock and added some. Kept fishless for 4 weeks. Just tested NO3 and its at 0 realized I have no test for po4 so ill order that tonight
I asked a similar question not too many weeks ago. These plagues can be heartbreaking and backbreaking to combat!
I found that a visual ID can narrow down options, but it cannot confirm a diagnosis in all cases. Only a microscopic ID can provide 100% confirmation IMO. Many here thought my issue was cyano via visual pictures. (See first photo). It was only through microscopic examination that Spirulina (second photo) was confirmed...two different bacterial infections that require two different treatments. If you don't have a microscope, you could take it to your local school and see if one of the science teachers there can't help you id. BTW, I had it on my sand in places too, and the Spirulina (microscope confirmed) on the sand did not have bubbles in it. In the Spirulina picture below, my lens was dirty (all the little dots) but you can see a different unidentified bacteria (green spot) in the center, too. It's just not the one overtaking my tank in the pic., the Spirulina (identified by its tight spiral structure) is the one overtaking my tank in the pic. Problem is under control now that I'm finally treating for the correct bacteria!
I found that a visual ID can narrow down options, but it cannot confirm a diagnosis in all cases. Only a microscopic ID can provide 100% confirmation IMO. Many here thought my issue was cyano via visual pictures. (See first photo). It was only through microscopic examination that Spirulina (second photo) was confirmed...two different bacterial infections that require two different treatments. If you don't have a microscope, you could take it to your local school and see if one of the science teachers there can't help you id. BTW, I had it on my sand in places too, and the Spirulina (microscope confirmed) on the sand did not have bubbles in it. In the Spirulina picture below, my lens was dirty (all the little dots) but you can see a different unidentified bacteria (green spot) in the center, too. It's just not the one overtaking my tank in the pic., the Spirulina (identified by its tight spiral structure) is the one overtaking my tank in the pic. Problem is under control now that I'm finally treating for the correct bacteria!
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Billldg
My Gem Tang Is Watching You
Try to raise your nitrates and phosphates well above 0 ppm. If it is dinos then water changes only help promote it. The tank only being up for 3 months, regardless on it being someone else's tank, it could be going thru the ugly stages again. I just went thru a battle with dinos that wiped out my tank, so I do have some experience with fighting them and winning, though I did take some drastic steps, hence the title of my build thread.
Agreed, only a microscope can tell you if you do or don't have dinos.
Agreed, only a microscope can tell you if you do or don't have dinos.
sfin52
So many pedestrians so little time
the link I posted has a away to tell if its dino or something else. Read through the whole thing. I check them but most of the time they are above 40 . optimal is 5-10.
Absolutely, we're all in this together!
It was members here who encouraged me to purchase a microscope and ID when treatment for cyano was not working. This community is awesome! Welcome Caruso86!
