Dinos

[PlantsBirdsAndFish]

I'm going to do the coffee filter test when I get ahead on my school work but in the mean time does this look like dinos to you? It's not coming off the sandbed when I try to vacuum it and is really stuck in there, almost matting. The color on the glass also looks a lot like dinos along with some bubbles in the surface.

0 TDS RODI source water
Phosphates: test coming tomorrow
Nitrates: 0
pH: 8.2 average

Ignore the red cyano in the back I'm not worried about that

 

[Bret Brinkmann]

Dinos typically bloom on the rocks, sand, and other algae. But not so much the glass. A dino bloom will occur under high intensity and long duration lighting with nutrients bottomed out. They have a snot like appearance and get worse throughout the day and slightly better through the night.

You can also take a sample in a cup, break it up by stirring it, then it will reform into a clump after 15 minutes. Other algae doesn't do this. Hard to ID in the photos but I'd say it isn't. But do the tests and let us know if it looks like snot.

Zero nitrates is a good way to get dinos. What test kits are you using?

 

[PlantsBirdsAndFish]

Dinos typically bloom on the rocks, sand, and other algae. But not so much the glass. A dino bloom will occur under high intensity and long duration lighting with nutrients bottomed out. They have a snot like appearance and get worse throughout the day and slightly better through the night.

You can also take a sample in a cup, break it up by stirring it, then it will reform into a clump after 15 minutes. Other algae doesn't do this. Hard to ID in the photos but I'd say it isn't. But do the tests and let us know if it looks like snot.

Zero nitrates is a good way to get dinos. What test kits are you using?

Test kits? Lol expired API, so none really...
Don't worry, a suite of salifert test kits are coming tomorrow so will test ASAP

Also yes I will do the coffee filter method when I get some time. I'm only worried it's dinos cause I nessarius snail for seemingly no reason

 

[dansreef]

Looks like your tank is pretty new. How old is it?

I have had dinos in my system for a couple of years. I have chased every possible regime to rid the tank of them. What I found is to keep nitrate up a bit as well as phosphates. this encourages algae and other bacteria to grow. The concept is going dirty. For me, it works. My display has some, mostly on the glass. I also see they live in my algae scrubber. I also have some cyano in my system. It actually outcompetes the dinos...in my system... and is a lot easier to keep in check...

One of the best ways to identify dinos is to put a sample under a simple microscope. If it appears you have masses of small independently moving organism.... chances are they are dinos. If the material is not moving.... and is filamentous... or strands...you have algae of bacteria. There are a bunch of threads here on R2R that can give you some good guidance. I have found that the less I mess around with my tanks...the better. Go buy yourself a cheap microscope... It is great to id dinos... as well as other microfauna in your tank.

I currently have a 135 corner bow... and a 230 twv reef system.

Good Luck!

 

[PlantsBirdsAndFish]

Looks like your tank is pretty new. How old is it?

I have had dinos in my system for a couple of years. I have chased every possible regime to rid the tank of them. What I found is to keep nitrate up a bit as well as phosphates. this encourages algae and other bacteria to grow. The concept is going dirty. For me, it works. My display has some, mostly on the glass. I also see they live in my algae scrubber. I also have some cyano in my system. It actually outcompetes the dinos...in my system... and is a lot easier to keep in check...

One of the best ways to identify dinos is to put a sample under a simple microscope. If it appears you have masses of small independently moving organism.... chances are they are dinos. If the material is not moving.... and is filamentous... or strands...you have algae of bacteria. There are a bunch of threads here on R2R that can give you some good guidance. I have found that the less I mess around with my tanks...the better. Go buy yourself a cheap microscope... It is great to id dinos... as well as other microfauna in your tank.

I currently have a 135 corner bow... and a 230 twv reef system.

Good Luck!

Yeah I'll probably end up having to get a microscope if dosing nitrates and phosphates doesn't work to see which strain I'm working with. The tank is about 2 months old so nutrients are probably very low

 

[dansreef]

Yeah I'll probably end up having to get a microscope if dosing nitrates and phosphates doesn't work to see which strain I'm working with. The tank is about 2 months old so nutrients are probably very low

Strong suggestion..... don't dose nitrates or phosphates.... Your tank is new. It needs to mature. Let it naturally. It will continue to go through ugly stages for a while. If your nutrients are low.... feed more... remove any reactors... and maybe not skim as much.

I know the urge to jump in and do something. But with a new tank.... let it mature. If you do have dinos...again.... let the nutrients come up... naturally through more feeding... less export.....that will help....at least it does for me. Dont try to resolve them at this point. Find someone with a microscope...that is the best way to tell for sure. I know people use coffee filters... and some will just put material in a small container and shake it. Over a few minutes if they form strands...that too suggests dinos. But.... you wont know for sure until you look under a scope.

BTW... how big is your tank? Do some more reading on dinos in all the various threads here on R2R! There are some well written people here on the topic. Yes there are some experts too.... I am not one.... I know dinos are scary for a lot of people. Heck... I lost thousands of dollars of coral and critters early on. I chased all sorts of remedies. None worked...most did more harm than good.... not until I went dirty... let my nutrients rise... and let algae and other bacteria grow. The best thing... dinos dont compete well. Simple algae and cyanobacteria will outcompete the dinos.... Also... another major rule of thumb... dont try to do anything quick in this hobby.... it usually ends with poor outcomes...

Good Luck!

 

[PlantsBirdsAndFish]

Strong suggestion..... don't dose nitrates or phosphates.... Your tank is new. It needs to mature. Let it naturally. It will continue to go through ugly stages for a while. If your nutrients are low.... feed more... remove any reactors... and maybe not skim as much.

I know the urge to jump in and do something. But with a new tank.... let it mature. If you do have dinos...again.... let the nutrients come up... naturally through more feeding... less export.....that will help....at least it does for me. Dont try to resolve them at this point. Find someone with a microscope...that is the best way to tell for sure. I know people use coffee filters... and some will just put material in a small container and shake it. Over a few minutes if they form strands...that too suggests dinos. But.... you wont know for sure until you look under a scope.

BTW... how big is your tank? Do some more reading on dinos in all the various threads here on R2R! There are some well written people here on the topic. Yes there are some experts too.... I am not one.... I know dinos are scary for a lot of people. Heck... I lost thousands of dollars of coral and critters early on. I chased all sorts of remedies. None worked...most did more harm than good.... not until I went dirty... let my nutrients rise... and let algae and other bacteria grow. The best thing... dinos dont compete well. Simple algae and cyanobacteria will outcompete the dinos.... Also... another major rule of thumb... dont try to do anything quick in this hobby.... it usually ends with poor outcomes...

Good Luck!

It's 20 gallons. Also sorry, I wasn't specific about the nutrient dosing. I have no intentions of dosing right away, but I hear it's a pretty solid plan b if regular feeding and stopping water changes doesn't work.

My concern is that since my only fish is in quarantine, I have nearly zero bioload other than a couple of corals, two snails, and a brittle star. Should I ghost feed the tank for the cuc and bio filter? The fish still has a few weeks left before he goes back in.

 

[Bret Brinkmann]

Strong suggestion..... don't dose nitrates or phosphates.... Your tank is new. It needs to mature. Let it naturally. It will continue to go through ugly stages for a while. If your nutrients are low.... feed more... remove any reactors... and maybe not skim as much.

I know the urge to jump in and do something. But with a new tank.... let it mature. If you do have dinos...again.... let the nutrients come up... naturally through more feeding... less export.....that will help....at least it does for me. Dont try to resolve them at this point. Find someone with a microscope...that is the best way to tell for sure. I know people use coffee filters... and some will just put material in a small container and shake it. Over a few minutes if they form strands...that too suggests dinos. But.... you wont know for sure until you look under a scope.

BTW... how big is your tank? Do some more reading on dinos in all the various threads here on R2R! There are some well written people here on the topic. Yes there are some experts too.... I am not one.... I know dinos are scary for a lot of people. Heck... I lost thousands of dollars of coral and critters early on. I chased all sorts of remedies. None worked...most did more harm than good.... not until I went dirty... let my nutrients rise... and let algae and other bacteria grow. The best thing... dinos dont compete well. Simple algae and cyanobacteria will outcompete the dinos.... Also... another major rule of thumb... dont try to do anything quick in this hobby.... it usually ends with poor outcomes...

Good Luck!

I beat dinos in my tank about a year ago and they haven't been back. There are a few things to take from this. Measure nutrients with an accurate test kit first. Never blindly dose. HOWEVER... If your nutrients are lower than 0.1 ppm PO4 and 1 ppm NO3, then raise them with INORGANIC sources NOT ORGANIC sources from feeding. Dinos are not as good at taking in inorganic sources as the algae and bacterial competition which makes it easier for the competition to establish itself.

Additionally organic sources such as over feeding also contain a lot of carbon which favors dino growth while the inorganic additives have none. Established tanks have a better success rate with over feeding than newer tanks because they typically already have some amount of competition with a foothold in the tank just waiting for the conditions to become favorable for growth.

So identify 1st, measure nutrients 2nd, dose only what you need using inorganic additives if you need to dose at all 3rd. Also run carbon to help remove the dino toxins that are harming your livestock. Stop using GFO because even trace amounts of iron have been linked to aiding dino blooms.

It's 20 gallons. Also sorry, I wasn't specific about the nutrient dosing. I have no intentions of dosing right away, but I hear it's a pretty solid plan b if regular feeding and stopping water changes doesn't work.

My concern is that since my only fish is in quarantine, I have nearly zero bioload other than a couple of corals, two snails, and a brittle star. Should I ghost feed the tank for the cuc and bio filter? The fish still has a few weeks left before he goes back in.

So no, don't ghost feed for the reasons above.

 

[PlantsBirdsAndFish]

I beat dinos in my tank about a year ago and they haven't been back. There are a few things to take from this. Measure nutrients with an accurate test kit first. Never blindly dose. HOWEVER... If your nutrients are lower than 0.1 ppm PO4 and 1 ppm NO3, then raise them with INORGANIC sources NOT ORGANIC sources from feeding. Dinos are not as good at taking in inorganic sources as the algae and bacterial competition which makes it easier for the competition to establish itself.

Additionally organic sources such as over feeding also contain a lot of carbon which favors dino growth while the inorganic additives have none. Established tanks have a better success rate with over feeding than newer tanks because they typically already have some amount of competition with a foothold in the tank just waiting for the conditions to become favorable for growth.

So identify 1st, measure nutrients 2nd, dose only what you need using inorganic additives if you need to dose at all 3rd. Also run carbon to help remove the dino toxins that are harming your livestock. Stop using GFO because even trace amounts of iron have been linked to aiding dino blooms.



So no, don't ghost feed for the reasons above.

Thank you for your advice; very insightful. Is it worth it to identify the species with a microscope or should I test to see if I have dinos at all then correct the nutrient levels first?

I think it's worth mentioning that the outbreak happened when the sandbed was disturbed by a powerhead, which is also coincidentally after I had added an acrylic baffle in the rear sump. I started noticing an acceleration in growth while the sump was dry when I was waiting for the silicone to cure. IT then started blooming when i turned the sump on again. I thought it was initially diatoms but it's been well over a month now and it's still largely there.

Also, the growth of it seems to be only just slightly encouraged with water changes. I am running a chaeto algae scrubber on opposite cyles though so maybe that is preventing it from exploding?


I've heard from many sources that in order to control the outbreak you have to physically remove as much of the dinos as possible. Does this also apply to the sandbed? The sandbed is not mature in the slightest and I do not want to disturb it if I don't have to and I also want to do as little water changes as possible right now in order to build up the nutrients in the tank.

 

[Bret Brinkmann]

You should verify what it is first. The stirring and clump test and coffee filter test are good. I recommend doing them even if you get a scope because you do those test now and they are still pretty definitive. You just won't know what strain of dino you have.

It usually doesn't matter because you mainly want to observe it's behavior. If it lessens during the night and gets worse throughout the day, then it is strain that UV will be effective against. However UV is not a cure just a means to get the bloom under control. The cure is nutrient control and competing algae. Scopes are still really fun though so recommend getting one just for the fun factor. I got a digital one for 25 bucks on Amazon and it takes pictures and videos too.

If it stays in your sand bed, then vacuuming the top layer will help. Sand bed strains usually are a bit more problematic and ID can help you take a more direct approach to treatment. Adding something like MicroBactor 7 will help against some sand dinos.

The macro algae in your refugium will take up a lot of the nutrients making it more difficult to establish competing algae in the DT. I recommend removing most of it to reduce the nutrient demand for now.

 

[PlantsBirdsAndFish]

You should verify what it is first. The stirring and clump test and coffee filter test are good. I recommend doing them even if you get a scope because you do those test now and they are still pretty definitive. You just won't know what strain of dino you have.

It usually doesn't matter because you mainly want to observe it's behavior. If it lessens during the night and gets worse throughout the day, then it is strain that UV will be effective against. However UV is not a cure just a means to get the bloom under control. The cure is nutrient control and competing algae. Scopes are still really fun though so recommend getting one just for the fun factor. I got a digital one for 25 bucks on Amazon and it takes pictures and videos too.

If it stays in your sand bed, then vacuuming the top layer will help. Sand bed strains usually are a bit more problematic and ID can help you take a more direct approach to treatment. Adding something like MicroBactor 7 will help against some sand dinos.

The macro algae in your refugium will take up a lot of the nutrients making it more difficult to establish competing algae in the DT. I recommend removing most of it to reduce the nutrient demand for now.

I will do the coffee filter test as soon as I can. The outbreak doesn't seem to lessen at night. I may consider taking some chaeto out if it worsens.

I will say that I do see a dusting of diatoms on parts of the sandbed that got dug out by the powerhead and there is red cyano in some of the shaded areas.

Also the rock underneath the brown algae coating it (whether it is brown cyano or dinos) is beginning to turn bright green.

I've tried vacuuming the sandbed before, but for the areas that the algae has matted on just clumps together, becoming too heavy, then falls back to the sandbed, causing me to suck up pretty much only sand and leaving the clumps. Is there a way around this? The sandbed isn't getting much worse, but it's definitely not getting better by leaving it alone. Just wondering what I should do while I wait to see if the outbreak gets worse.

 

[Bret Brinkmann]

It's unusual to have cyano, diatoms, and dinos together. I definitely recommend the scope now to make sure it is dinos and not just a massive diatom bloom. Dinos should break up fairly easy. If they don't, then grabbing it and pulling it out. That would make for a good sample to look at under a scope and do those test with.

 

[dwest]

You should verify what it is first. The stirring and clump test and coffee filter test are good. I recommend doing them even if you get a scope because you do those test now and they are still pretty definitive. You just won't know what strain of dino you have.

It usually doesn't matter because you mainly want to observe it's behavior. If it lessens during the night and gets worse throughout the day, then it is strain that UV will be effective against. However UV is not a cure just a means to get the bloom under control. The cure is nutrient control and competing algae. Scopes are still really fun though so recommend getting one just for the fun factor. I got a digital one for 25 bucks on Amazon and it takes pictures and videos too.

If it stays in your sand bed, then vacuuming the top layer will help. Sand bed strains usually are a bit more problematic and ID can help you take a more direct approach to treatment. Adding something like MicroBactor 7 will help against some sand dinos.

The macro algae in your refugium will take up a lot of the nutrients making it more difficult to establish competing algae in the DT. I recommend removing most of it to reduce the nutrient demand for now.

@Bret Brinkmann Can you attach a link to your $25 scope?

 

[Bret Brinkmann]

Plugable 250x Digital USB Microscope with Observation Stand

Great for kids, hobbyists, and professionals, the Plugable USB2-MICRO-250X Digital Microscope allows you to work quickly and effectively at the microscopic level.

plugable.com

Amazon.com : plugable usb microscope

www.googleadservices.com

Website and Amazon link. Cost went up since I bought mine. It may have been on sale. Still would buy it again at 40 bucks. Magnification is only 250 but the range of focus is incredible. You can see things on you front glass and the back glass not just what is directly under the lens.