Disease ID?

[Triggerpuller]

I have had this fish in QT for roughly a month. I have not been treating with anything because besides this no other problems were present. I received both fish I currently have in QT directly from the wholesaler. One is a blue throat trigger and the problem fish is pink tailed trigger. Now I have never had either one of these before. So I am a little unsure of their color changing abilities and have a hunch that this may be what I am seeing. I want to make 100% sure though. The splotches shown below are not fuzzy and look like normal skin of the fish. His eating pattern has not changed and besides the discoloring nothing seems to be wrong. The other fish in QT is showing no signs of anything. I have had issues keeping my ammonia below .05 (QT just wont cycle properly, been using Kent, Pro Ammonia: Detox to keep it under somewhat control) but it has never been higher than that. Has anyone seen this before? Is it a disease or just a color change? Should I start a treatment of some type and if I do, do I need to drain the tank due to all the ammonia detox I have been using? Thanks for any help or knowledge you can pass on. I have been in salt water for over 9 years and I still feel like I know nothing about it... every day you learn something knew in this hobby it seems.

 

[Humblefish]

I haven't kept triggers in many years, but I do not believe those splotches are normal. Have you noticed any aggression between the two triggers in QT? One possibility is they are stress spots. Another possibility is a bacterial infection.

 

[ebushrow]

I would also think stress spots....watch them and see if they change position or size at different times of the day....might even sneak in with a flashlight after lights out to check.

 

[Triggerpuller]

I came home yesterday and found both my fish now have ich.... why me... I setup a QT to get rid of ich and now have ich in my QT... Its light though so transferred them to a small 10 gallon tank and plan on doing 50% water changes every 2-3 days to keep the ammonia down till they show no signs of ich. I was so close to putting them into my DT.....I am treating them with Coppersafe. I couldn't treat them in the 65 gallon because I was using an ammonia blocker. Drained the 65 and will be buying another 10 gallon for emergency tank transfers.

 

[SeahorseKeeper]

On the bright side, you caught the ich before it ended up in the DT. If it were me, I would keep them in QT for at least 4-6 weeks after being symptom free.

 

[Triggerpuller]

Yeah there is that. I literally was in the process of moving the blue throat to my DT, when on closer inspection I realized it had ich... I then checked out the pink tail after I caught him and realized he now had ich also. I am hoping by catching it so early I can up their survival chances. The copper levels wont be right till later today, I have been gradually bringing it up 2.5mls at a time of solution with they hopes of not shocking them anymore than I already have with the tank change and close quarters they are now in.

 

[miyags]

That trigger needs feed more looks to thin.

 

[Triggerpuller]

Been feeding two times a day, he was wild caught and only been in captivity for a little more than a month so far. He gets the same amount of food my Niger does and my Niger is 3 times his size.

 

[Humblefish]

I would treat with Coppersafe for one solid month and then observe for at least a couple of weeks afterwards.

 

[Triggerpuller]

I would treat with Coppersafe for one solid month and then observe for at least a couple of weeks afterwards.

Update: I did so since 4/13 and this morning, I found the pink trigger upside down under my pump, he is still alive, but as I left for work I am not sure for how long. I noticed last night that it seemed he was re-infected with Ich. Which doesn't follow the logic of Ich... I have the proper levels of copper recommended how would the Ich survive the copper in its free swimming state to re infect that fish. I really don't understand, I think its time for me to take a step back and not buy any new fish for a few months. It seems I am making rookie mistakes and costing me lots of money and losing important fish. I am going to attempt to get the blue throat healthy that is in that QT with him and the Yellow eye Kole I have in my make shift bucket and stop there until I can get a 100% grasp on ich. The more I research it the more conflicting information I get.

 

[Humblefish]

Update: I did so since 4/13 and this morning, I found the pink trigger upside down under my pump, he is still alive, but as I left for work I am not sure for how long. I noticed last night that it seemed he was re-infected with Ich. Which doesn't follow the logic of Ich... I have the proper levels of copper recommended how would the Ich survive the copper in its free swimming state to re infect that fish. I really don't understand, I think its time for me to take a step back and not buy any new fish for a few months. It seems I am making rookie mistakes and costing me lots of money and losing important fish. I am going to attempt to get the blue throat healthy that is in that QT with him and the Yellow eye Kole I have in my make shift bucket and stop there until I can get a 100% grasp on ich. The more I research it the more conflicting information I get.

Question #1: Are you sure it's ich? Posting a pic might help. Copper only treats ich & velvet. It DOES NOT treat brooklynella, flukes, bacterial infections, etc.

Question #2: Have you tested your copper level to ensure it is between 1.5-2.0 ppm? Coppersafe is chelated copper, so you need a “total copper test kit” such as API’s to measure it. Seachem or Salifert will not work with Coppersafe. Those are meant to be used with Cupramine.

 

[Triggerpuller]

Question #1: Are you sure it's ich? Posting a pic might help. Copper only treats ich & velvet. It DOES NOT treat brooklynella, flukes, bacterial infections, etc.

Question #2: Have you tested your copper level to ensure it is between 1.5-2.0 ppm? Coppersafe is chelated copper, so you need a “total copper test kit†such as API’s to measure it. Seachem or Salifert will not work with Coppersafe. Those are meant to be used with Cupramine.

Its either Ich or velvet, it looks like little pieces of salt, but the more I read about velvet it possible that the above grey spots where actually the fish's reaction to velvet. I have been attempted to locate an API test kit so its possible my levels dropped a little bit. No one locally has the test kit I need, its on order though. (which doesn't do me a bit of good). I found out a couple days ago that my test kit doesn't work.... So the proper levels are only based on what the directions say. I added the recommended 5 ml per 4 gallons. (edit- I am at work but if the fish survives till later I will post pics tomorrow of what it looks like. I can't promise quality as the QT has poor lighting conditions.)

 

[Humblefish]

If the Cu level is <1.5, this could explain the recurrence as it must be within "therapeutic range" (1.5-2.0 ppm for Coppersafe) in order to be effective. Anything >2.0 is still considered effective, but most fish cannot tolerate levels that high long-term. If you think you may be dealing with velvet, get it as close to 2.0 as possible. Keeping fish in copper below therapeutic levels is actually dangerous, as it can mask symptoms of velvet and possibly ich.

This is what you want: http://www.amazon.com/API-65L-Copper-Test-Kit/dp/B0006JDWH8

 

[Triggerpuller]

If the Cu level is <1.5, this could explain the recurrence as it must be within "therapeutic range" (1.5-2.0 ppm for Coppersafe) in order to be effective. Anything >2.0 is still considered effective, but most fish cannot tolerate levels that high long-term. If you think you may be dealing with velvet, get it as close to 2.0 as possible. Keeping fish in copper below therapeutic levels is actually dangerous, as it can mask symptoms of velvet and possibly ich.

This is what you want: http://www.amazon.com/API-65L-Copper-Test-Kit/dp/B0006JDWH8

Thank you for your help as always. I am actually going to go ahead and get that one, now lets just cross our fingers that a week from now is not too late. Thank you for the link, it made it quick and easy for me to order it. Dummy proofed it lol

 

[Triggerpuller]

Question #1: Are you sure it's ich? Posting a pic might help. Copper only treats ich & velvet. It DOES NOT treat brooklynella, flukes, bacterial infections, etc.

Question #2: Have you tested your copper level to ensure it is between 1.5-2.0 ppm? Coppersafe is chelated copper, so you need a “total copper test kit†such as API’s to measure it. Seachem or Salifert will not work with Coppersafe. Those are meant to be used with Cupramine.

here is the best pic I can get, the other trigger in the tank with him is now eating his fins. But he is still alive.

 

[Humblefish]

Triggerpuller That looks like velvet to me. I would perform a FW dip and/or formalin bath to buy you more time. Prognosis for velvet is not good. :sad:

 

[Humblefish]

More info below...

Freshwater Dip: Provides temporary relief for Brooklynella, Flukes, Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly even Ich & Uronema marinum (both unproven). Can be used to confirm the presence of Flukes.

How To Treat - Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt a little tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.

Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also, tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes. Multiple dips may be done, but it’s important to give your fish a day to recuperate in-between dips.

For flukes, use a dark (preferably black) bucket so you can see if tiny white worms fall out of the fish (especially out of the gills) at around the 3-4 minute mark. The worms will settle to the bottom, so you can use a flashlight to look for them there as well.

Pros - Provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases in a chemical free environment. Can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.

Cons/Side Effects - Not a permanent “fix” for any disease, as FW dips are not potent enough to eradicate all of the parasites/worms afflicting the fish. Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal”.

Formalin: Treats Brooklynella and provides temporary relief for Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium). Also may be used as temporary relief, or even as an alternative treatment, for worms such as flukes and black ich.

How To Treat - Formalin is very interesting because its potential is not fully known. It is best administered in a bath solution for 30-45 minutes, following the dosage instructions on whatever bottle you use; or at 150 ppm if using "100% formalin" (ex. Formalin-MS). The bath should be done in a large glass bowl or container, and temperature should match the tank the fish is coming from. A bucket is not advised as plastic may absorb some of the medication and then leach it back out during future use. It is imperative that you heavily aerate the bath solution for at least 30 minutes before and also during treatment to compensate for oxygen depletion. The fish should be placed in a premixed bath solution. DO NOT add more formalin after the fish is already in the bath.

For Brooklynella, multiple baths may be required (so long as symptoms persist), but it’s important to give the fish a day to recuperate in-between baths. Formalin has also been used as alternative treatment for external worms such as flukes and black ich. However, at least 2 baths are required (7 days apart) for the same reason described when using Prazipro. For all of the above, post treatment, the fish should not be returned to the same tank/water he came from to prevent reinfection.

You can dose formalin directly in a quarantine tank, but this can be risky due to the harshness of formalin and how quickly it can deplete the water of oxygen. Providing additional gas exchange to the QT is a must! A fish being treated must be monitored closely and should be removed if showing signs of distress - this applies when treating in QT or in the bath solution.

Pros - Treats or provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases. In some cases, formalin can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.

Cons/Side Effects - Formalin contains formaldehyde, a known carcinogen. Therefore, precautions must be taken when using it. Preventing your skin from coming in contact with it by wearing water proof gloves and not breathing in any fumes by wearing a face mask is highly recommended. Formalin also can be harsh on the fish and will quickly deplete oxygen from the water. In some areas, the purchase of formalin is prohibited.

 

[4FordFamily]

I agree it is velvet.

I had a very odd strain of velvet that showed NO outward symptoms (other than a little ich off and on) on fish that are obvious. Fish, particularly angels and tangs, would die within 2-4 days. The water params were flawless. This persisted each time I was sure I found the culprit (I did have flukes and I treated for them). The losses continued. I hadn't bought any tangs until my Chevron, and unfortunately he had to take one for the team. I was already wondering what the disease was or if it was the water or something i could not identify - and then within three days of his purchase he died, but on day 2 I noticed CLASSIC velvet (even the velvety coating that you see only in severe cases) and everything began to make sense.

PERFECTLY healthy angelfish from Divers Den lasted 2 - 7 days. They NEVER showed ich (the tangs did a few spots), NEVER showed any other obvious symptoms other than heavy breathing which occurs in nearly all parasitic infections and other water issues. Why is this relevant? Well my Emperor Angels (both that I killed ) showed those spots.

I hypothesize that velvet affected the gills primarily, which is why there were no obvious external signs until the day of death when a milky film covered them (I thought it was just color loss because they were dead or nearly dead - I had not seen velvet in YEARS). But because the parasite so heavily infests the gills, the fish is not able to get proper oxygenation and coupled with stress can cause those splotches.

Within ten minutes of identifying velvet on the tang, I treated the tank with Cupramine. I am continuing treatment, and have ordered some replacement fish I will keep in quarantine with copper as well until I am certain the tank is cleared up. Velvet is horrible, i had i about 8 years ago and that stuff is like ebola - it cleared out 4 tangs, 2 wrasse, 2 chromis, 1 trigger, a mandarin, two angels and I cannot remember what else in less than a week. My Melanarus wrasse showed NO symptoms whatsoever, and one of my chromis did not either. They lived several years after until I sold them both.

So confusing also was the fact that my Banana Wrasse, Red Coris Wrasse, Lime Green Wrasse, Cleaner Wrasse, Candy Cane Squirrelfish, Lawn Mower Blenny, and Sleeper Goby showed no symptoms at all. In fairness, the sleeper goby was only exposed to velvet for 3 days before I started treatment, but seemed completely at ease and normal. But this makes sense, wrasse (except leopard, fairy, and flasher wrasses in my experience) are often able to live with velvet with little or no impact.

My Magnificent Foxface got cloudy eyes but recovered with velvet in the tank and started acting completely normal, so she too seemed to build an immunity. Poor fish were probably still suffering, just not obviously. She is still kicking and thriving.

Good luck, sorry for the essay but velvet is getting sneakier, and it is VERY deadly

 

[Triggerpuller]

@Triggerpuller That looks like velvet to me. I would perform a FW dip and/or formalin bath to buy you more time. Prognosis for velvet is not good. :sad:

Yeah I was afraid of that, the first signs I saw looked like ich, then it turned into this. This morning he was doing 100% better, he went from not being able to swim to being able to eat a little bit. I think what saved his life so far is the fact that he kept himself wedged in between the tank wall and the heater I have in there, this allowed him to conserve energy and I also had loaded him up with food because I was trying to get the Blue throat to eat infront of me, and of course he was snagging every bite. The only problem I see long term at this point is his fins are torn to shreds by the other trigger that is in the small tank with him (his right dorsal fin is almost completely gone). I want to move the other trigger out, but I fear it is also infected. I also don't have room to setup another QT as I already have 2 setup and don't have anymore heater or pumps left. I am doing the tank transfer method on my Kole tang I talked about in another thread that deff had ich, so in another week I should be able to move it back to my DT (coral). I was thinking about doing the tank xfer method on the Blue throat trig and moving him to the FOWLR DT. Will that work with Marine Velvet?

 

[Triggerpuller]

I agree it is velvet.

I had a very odd strain of velvet that showed NO outward symptoms (other than a little ich off and on) on fish that are obvious. Fish, particularly angels and tangs, would die within 2-4 days. The water params were flawless.

Thank you for your info. I have had really bad luck recently. This is my first run in with Ich/velvet ever. I guess the quality of fish I was getting in Florida when I was living there is better than what I am getting now. I never had a QT setup until now, and I have never had a plague like this in my tank. Its upsetting, time/money consuming and frustrating.