DIY all-in-one + trace elements

[Tmmste]

I wondered which elements I can add to calcium acetate to make an all-in-one solution. E.g.
- magnesium chloride
- potassium chloride
- strontium chloride

Are there forms of B / F / V / I / Mo which could be added to this mix? Or is there a better approach to create an all-in-one solution? I just wondered how this is done... if I am not mistaken adding calcium hydroxide to vinegar also created something similar to calcium acetate.. and calcium formate could replace calcium acetate if less carbon dosing is required?

 

[jsker]

@Randy Holmes-Farley can answer this one best.

I would say that you can.

 

[Tmmste]

Dear @Randy Holmes-Farley would you be so kind to share your insights about this?

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

What calcium acetate product are you using? Why are you only concerned with adding B, F, V, I and Mo, and not all the other trace elements present in seawater?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I'd measure the pH of the calcium acetate solution you are using to decide if metals such as iron will be stable. A little acetic acid might usefully be added if the pH is above 7 and you want iron and some of the others to remain soluble.

 

[Tmmste]

What calcium acetate product are you using? Why are you only concerned with adding B, F, V, I and Mo, and not all the other trace elements present in seawater?

I certainly am. Currently I use modified a 2-part with kH+ including NaSO4/V/F/B/I/Mo (everything with sodium), Ca+ including Mg/Sr/K (everything chloride). However I wondered how to make an all-in-one solution... I would prefer to make calciumacetate with vinegar and calciumhydroxide and then add chemicals. the question is which chemicals can I add??? I assume only chloride or only sodium based elements. As the salinity increase will be negible, I only have to add trace elements on a consumption base, not having to compensate for doing salinity corrections. Maybe you have an idea what the possibilities are?

 

[Tmmste]

I'd measure the pH of the calcium acetate solution you are using to decide if metals such as iron will be stable. A little acetic acid might usefully be added if the pH is above 7 and you want iron and some of the others to remain soluble.

Well I would like to make the calciumacetate with calciumhydroxide and vinegar, calciumacetate powder is expensive stuff. I prefer to add Mg/K/Sr.. and hopefully other elements like B/I/Mo/V/F.. although I assume I cannot add halogens to chloride based elements nor sodium bound elements to chloride bound elements.. hopefully you can shed some light on this. I find it puzzling how a brand can come up with an "all-in-one" if it is lacking trace elements or is primarely chloride based (not really balanced in terms of Na:CI:SO4).

Mn & Fe I will add seperately.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

.. although I assume I cannot add halogens to chloride based elements nor sodium bound elements to chloride bound elements...

Sorry, that part isn’t clear to me.

Mixing chloride, bromide, iodide, fluoride and sodium , potassium and more together is fine.

 

[Tmmste]

Sorry, that part isn’t clear to me.

Mixing chloride, bromide, iodide, fluoride and sodium , potassium and more together is fine.

Hmm I "believed" elements bound to sodium and chloride should not be mixed together? Or is this assumption incorrect?

e.g. potassiumchloride can be added to calciumchloride.. but not sodiumcarbonate. Or is this false?

If this is not a problem, I would like to diy calciumacetate by adding vinegar to calciumhydroxide and add this to the mix:

- potassiumiodide (I)
- stontiumchloride (Sr)
- potassiumchloride (K)
- sodium tetraborate decahydrate (B)
- sodiumfluoride (F)
- magnesiumchloride (Mg)

Would this be possible?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Carbonate and bicarbonate cannot be mixed with divalent (+2 charge) cations such as calcium, magnesium, or strontium. Sodium and potassium can be mixed with nearly anything, certainly including all halides.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The borate will raise pH can cannot be mixed with magnesium.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The rest of your list is probably ok

 

[Tmmste]

Carbonate and bicarbonate cannot be mixed with divalent (+2 charge) cations such as calcium, magnesium, or strontium. Sodium and potassium can be mixed with nearly anything, certainly including all halides.

So if I understand you correctly I should be able to make calciumacetate and add:
- strontiumchloride hexahydrate (Sr+)
- magnesiumchloride hexahydrate (Mn+)
- potassiumchloride (K+)
- potassiumiodide (I+)
- ammonium monovandate (V+)
- sodiumfluoride (F+)
- sodiummolybdate (Mo+)

Only boron would then not be added to the mix. If this is possible I would need to know how to exacly make calciumacetate.. do you happen to know the minimum amount of vinegar required to turn e.g. 10gr of calciumhydroxide into calciumacetate.. hopefully you can help me out with this. It would be a pitty if the elements would precipitate out of the solution if I used e.g. only 15ml vinegar per teaspoon of calciumhydroxide. Although this is my assumption of what would happen...

Hopefully you can share your thoughts on this. Kind regards, Tim

 

[Christoph]

Hi Tim,
you cant mix in the fluoride, since it will give precipitates of calcium and Strontium fluoride.

Best,
christoph

 

[Tmmste]

Hi Tim,
you cant mix in the fluoride, since it will give precipitates of calcium and Strontium fluoride.

Best,
christoph

Dear Christoph,

Thank you for chiming in! I am not aware of the interactions between elements. Good to know and in my opinion an all-in-one is then not really all-in-one;
- boron and magnesium react
- fluoride and calcium react
- fluoride and strontium react

I could add fluoride and boron to the kH correction stock solution.. but this was not really my idea of an all-in-one.. it would "save" a lot of trace elements though... if I didn't have to account for the elements which need to be corrected to compensate the salinity rise with a balanced 2-part. Any ideas how to overcome the incompatibility of F & Ca/Sr and B & Mg? I could also add some kH stocksolution to the top-off water ofcourse

 

[Tmmste]

Is there also a way to overcome the fact that mold / bacteria will grow in there? As any excess, undissolved, calciumhydroxide will react with elements and precipitate...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hi Tim,
you cant mix in the fluoride, since it will give precipitates of calcium and Strontium fluoride.

Best,
christoph

I agree it might, but it Depends on how concentrated he tries to make the fluoride. It should be quite low for most situations.

 

[Tmmste]

I agree it might, but it Depends on how concentrated he tries to make the fluoride. It should be quite low for most situations.

Well, my plan was to create a large amount of calciumacetate. However I noticed on one of your posts it is like sugar water and will grow bacteria inevitably. This alone will keep me away from doing this. As I will continue skimmerless, my plan is to use an all-in-one as it will not raise salinity as much as a 2-part. If no water is removed from the system, then adding as little NaCL would save costs on the long run for the replacement of trace elements. E.g. currently for every 2 liters stock solution, I need to replace 2.5L tank water worth of trace elements. Calciumhydroxide would be ideal as it does not add salinity. However, if I cannot make a large batch of calciumacetate in advance.. which will last me for a month or so.. I will dissolve each teaspoon in 15ml vinegar and make sure the top-off container is saturated with kalk but it will remain alkaline to prevent bacteria growth.

I will make a carbon source containing 69% vinegar & 31% vodka and add to this mix (Again, if there is no way to overcome bacteriagrowth in calciumacetate):

- (ascrobic acid and/or trisodiumacetate... maybe if it has any added benefit)
- Fe-Bisglycate
- Mn-EDTA
- Magnesium chloride hexahydrate
- Strontium chloride hexahydrate
- Potassium chloride
- Ammonium monovanadate
- Potassium iodide
- Sodium molybdate

Unless it is not possible to add any of the trace elements in a ethanonol/vinegar solution. Boron and Fluoride I will then add seperately..and correct kH every now and then and steer on Ca consumption. I will have to experiment with the ratios between the trace elements. And use ATI tests to figure out what I need to correct about the ratios in the course of time.

The carbon source is added to a donovan nitrate destroyer. I will first need to figure out the amount of carbon needed to keep no3 stable before I determine the amount of trace elements added to this. the destroyer & gfo reactor will be the only sources of filtration (at least that is what I aim for).

Hopefully this is possible, please let me know what you think about this.