DIY Lanthanum Dosing

radiata · Aug 23, 2023

After messing with LaCl for too many years now, I'm backed into a corner where I am required to tell you all that LaCl is pure EVIL! Good luck using using it!

Could some one please explain to me why the latest ICP tests I've run show Phosphate as 0.025 PPM and La at 10.601 ppb. Shouldn't one or the other be zero? Excess La should result in Zero PO4, right? And excess PO4 should result in Zero La, right? Why aren't they mutually exclusive?

Thank you Randy for any enlightenment on this...

Pistondog · Aug 24, 2023

radiata said:
After messing with LaCl for too many years now, I'm backed into a corner where I am required to tell you all that LaCl is pure EVIL! Good luck using using it!

Could some one please explain to me why the latest ICP tests I've run show Phosphate as 0.025 PPM and La at 10.601 ppb. Shouldn't one or the other be zero? Excess La should result in Zero PO4, right? And excess PO4 should result in Zero La, right? Why aren't they mutually exclusive?

Thank you Randy for any enlightenment on this...

Sounds like a trace amount did not get filtered out. I think any lanthanum precipitate, phosphate or other would show as lanthanum in an icp test.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Aug 24, 2023

radiata said:
After messing with LaCl for too many years now, I'm backed into a corner where I am required to tell you all that LaCl is pure EVIL! Good luck using using it!

Could some one please explain to me why the latest ICP tests I've run show Phosphate as 0.025 PPM and La at 10.601 ppb. Shouldn't one or the other be zero? Excess La should result in Zero PO4, right? And excess PO4 should result in Zero La, right? Why aren't they mutually exclusive?

Thank you Randy for any enlightenment on this...

One or both may be inaccurate, or the can coexist at low levels.

There will always be some free lanthanum after adding it, no matter what the phosphate level, but I do not know where the exact equilibrium lies. No, they are not mutually exclusive just like calcium and carbonate are not.

KrisReef · Sep 22, 2023

gbroadbridge said:
It takes 2 to argue

Yes it doesn’t!
And if You don’t like it I don’t either but that doesn’t make it an argument, or does it?
We’re just going to have to disagree to disagree on this point?
Good we got that settled

I hope this clarifies the point that we have no issue, and what was the thread about?

Miami Reef · Nov 12, 2023

Can you explain if I’m dealing with a false reading of PO4 with lanthanum? If I use a .22um nylon filter, will that resolve the potential of false positives?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Nov 12, 2023

Miami Reef said:
Can you explain if I’m dealing with a false reading of PO4 with lanthanum? If I use a .22um nylon filter, will that resolve the potential of false positives?

Well, it will remove particulates larger than that, and not any smaller than that. I do not know what size particles form.

Mickey · Nov 13, 2023

Miami Reef said:
Can you explain if I’m dealing with a false reading of PO4 with lanthanum? If I use a .22um nylon filter, will that resolve the potential of false positives?

Are you saying that using lanthanum will potentially lead to false readings on phosphate tests?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Nov 13, 2023

MickeyCT said:
Are you saying that using lanthanum will potentially lead to false readings on phosphate tests?

The concern is suspended lanthanum phosphate particles possibly getting into the test sample, dissolving at the low pH of the test, and giving a false high value.

I do not know if that commonly happens or not.

Thales · Nov 13, 2023

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
The concern is suspended lanthanum phosphate particles possibly getting into the test sample, dissolving at the low pH of the test, and giving a false high value.

I do not know if that commonly happens or not.

Doesnt lanthanum react with like everything? Why would it be in the water column? If that were a thing, seems like it would happen if you were overdosing lanthanum. Thanks!

Randy Holmes-Farley · Nov 14, 2023

Thales said:
Doesnt lanthanum react with like everything? Why would it be in the water column? If that were a thing, seems like it would happen if you were overdosing lanthanum. Thanks!

It is true that few see dissolved lanthanum by icp, but I do expect that after dosing there can be substantial particulate matter that eventually settles out. I don’t think the particulates are especially reactive.

Mickey · Nov 14, 2023

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
The concern is suspended lanthanum phosphate particles possibly getting into the test sample, dissolving at the low pH of the test, and giving a false high value.

I do not know if that commonly happens or not.

Thanks for explaining. I understand the issue now.

Thales · Nov 14, 2023

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
It is true that few see dissolved lanthanum by icp, but I do expect that after dosing there can be substantial particulate matter that eventually settles out. I don’t think the particulates are especially reactive.

Thanks.

I think to avoid lanthanum in the water is why it is recommended that you run it slowly through an appropriate mechanical filter. When people dose it into their water directly I get nervous, not because it doesn't work fine for some people, but because it will likely not work well for others.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Nov 14, 2023

Thales said:
Thanks.

I think to avoid lanthanum in the water is why it is recommended that you run it slowly through an appropriate mechanical filter. When people dose it into their water directly I get nervous, not because it doesn't work fine for some people, but because it will likely not work well for others.

Yes, that may be related to some folks issues, but folks with mechanical filter socks have also reported issues.

Anyway, the potential for phosphate kit interference and possible tang issues may or may not be related to the same thing.

piranhaman00 · Nov 20, 2023

This is excellent. I dose Phosban L by two little fishies diluted 1:100 in RODI.

The bottle says 33% lananthum chloride; does anyone know which form of LaCl3 they use so I can do the math?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Nov 20, 2023

piranhaman00 said:
This is excellent. I dose Phosban L by two little fishies diluted 1:100 in RODI.

The bottle says 33% lananthum chloride; does anyone know which form of LaCl3 they use so I can do the math?

A bottle that says 33% lanthanum chloride should be 33% lanthanum chloride in the bottle no matter what hydration form they started with.

piranhaman00 · Nov 20, 2023

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
A bottle that says 33% lanthanum chloride should be 33% lanthanum chloride in the bottle no matter what hydration form they started with.

Yes but I’m trying to calculate the concentration of lananthum in the bottle to calculate how many mls needed. If it’s 33% lananthum chloride I need to know if the lananthum chloride was anhydrous or not correct?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Nov 20, 2023

piranhaman00 said:
Yes but I’m trying to calculate the concentration of lananthum in the bottle to calculate how many mls needed. If it’s 33% lananthum chloride I need to know if the lananthum chloride was anhydrous or not correct?

That way of labeling is independent of how they started. They would just add 33% of an anhydrous form, or more of a hydrated form.

If a bottle of liquor says it is 40% ethanol, you would not think to ask what concentration of ethanol was used to make it.

jda · Nov 20, 2023

You are probably already failing if you are trusting TLF to be accurate with their measurements or even accurately tell you what is in the bottle. If you really want to do this precise of a thing, buy your own LaCl and start from scratch with something that you can trust.

Does anybody trust then to know the difference between anhydrous and shineola?

piranhaman00 · Nov 20, 2023

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
That way of labeling is independent of how they started. They would just add 33% of an anhydrous form, or more of a hydrated form.

If a bottle of liquor says it is 40% ethanol, you would not think to ask what concentration of ethanol was used to make it.

Mmm so that means the solution is 330,000ppm LaCl3 or 187,225ppm Lananthum?

piranhaman00 · Nov 20, 2023

jda said:
You are probably already failing if you are trusting TLF to be accurate with their measurements or even accurately tell you what is in the bottle. If you really want to do this precise of a thing, buy your own LaCl and start from scratch with something that you can trust.

Does anybody trust then to know the difference between anhydrous and shineola?

Haha true but I already have the bottle