Do all sumps eventually overflow ?

[Idech]

Flapper valve (sometimes called swinging check valve) is more reliable than a check valve but even they need replaced regularly.

That’s what it says on my quote (swinging check valve). I didn’t know there were two kinds.

Anti siphon hole and sump large enough to handle the back drain are the best remedy. Make sure that they are on unions to be serviced or replaced if you intend to rely on one.

We’ve talked about siphon breaks (hole) a few times but they told me they are noisy so I decided I am not getting one. The sump will be large enough and there will be a swinging check valve.

I sit in front of my tank most of the day so a low level of noise is important for me.

I’m not sure I understand what should be on unions ?

 

[DIFish]

That’s what it says on my quote (swinging check valve). I didn’t know there were two kinds.


We’ve talked about siphon breaks (hole) a few times but they told me they are noisy so I decided I am not getting one. The sump will be large enough and there will be a swinging check valve.

I sit in front of my tank most of the day so a low level of noise is important for me.

I’m not sure I understand what should be on unions ?

I don’t think check valves or siphon breaks are strictly needed, if you setup the overflow and returns correctly. During a full siphon water will drain to the lowest point of the returns and overflow. I have my returns about 1 inch under the surface so when the pumps cut at max I siphon 2-3 gallons on a 65g system. Your sump doesn’t have to be fully functional either during this time if you don’t have a refugium, meaning that the sump water level can go over baffles and flood the entire thing as long as it doesn’t go over the total height of the sump.

Also- Bean animal overflow is the best imo. 1 Siphon, 1 barely wet to handle excess flow, and an emergency just in case. Could get away without the emergency if needed.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

but they told me they are noisy so I decided I am not getting one

lol!
I'm starting to wonder about your "expert installers"!

It's only noisy when you shut off the return pump. It "slurps" for about 10-15 seconds as it's sucking both air and water. It adds no noise to the normal operation of a running tank. If your return pump nozzle is not high enough, you absolutely need a siphon break.

 

[Idech]

lol!
I'm starting to wonder about your "expert installers"!

It's only noisy when you shut off the return pump. It "slurps" for about 10-15 seconds as it's sucking both air and water. It adds no noise to the normal operation of a running tank. If your return pump nozzle is not high enough, you absolutely need a siphon break.

Hum, I’m going to have to challenge them about this then. They weren’t talking about a temporary slurping noise. They said a little bit of air goes through while the system runs and that makes noise. At least that’s what I thought they said.

Maybe they meant what you said.

I’ve put emphasis on not having a noisy system so they are trying to respect that.

I’ll let you know when I find out.

(there is also the fact that my first language is French. We discuss everything in French and the quote is in French as well. But I do all my research in English. So sometimes maybe translation gets in the way).

 

[Idech]

If your return pump nozzle is not high enough, you absolutely need a siphon break.

Why would my return pump not be high enough ? In which scenario does this happen ? I’m having a bean animal overflow system, nothing out of the ordinary.

 

[jda]

I have siphon holes on every return on every tank for 30 years. I have yet to hear any noise from any of them.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Why would my return pump not be high enough ? In which scenario does this happen ? I’m having a bean animal overflow system, nothing out of the ordinary.

The end of the return pipe is usually flexible (the part in your tank, after it comes out of the overflow box). If it terminates 2" below the surface of the running tank, it will siphon off 2 inches of water into your sump before it hits air and the siphon is broken. By drilling a hole in the underside of the part of the return pipe that's in your tank, you allow air to be sucked in sooner (at a higher water level) and break the siphon earlier.

 

[Idech]

By drilling a hole in the underside of the part of the return pipe that's in your tank, you allow air to be sucked in sooner (at a higher water level) and break the siphon earlier.

So if I have two return pipes (loc-lines) then I need a hole on each one, right ?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Here are a couple screenshots that may help you visualize, and the webpage they came from. Obviously the return set up on this tank is different from how yours will be, but the article gives you a good idea of the process.

Anti-siphon holes | Melev's Reef

melevsreef.com

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Here are a couple screenshots that may help you visualize, and the webpage they came from. Obviously the return set up on this tank is different from how yours will be, but the article gives you a good idea of the process.

Anti-siphon holes | Melev's Reef

melevsreef.com

And don't worry, water doesn't come shooting out like it shows in the second picture...

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

So if I have two return pipes (loc-lines) then I need a hole on each one, right ?

Possibly, depending on how your return plumbing is set up, but it wouldn't hurt to have one on both pipes for safety/redundency even if it's not necessary to break the siphon

 

[Alpha_and_Gec]

I actually always had the opposite issue… my tank overflows because my sump pumps out too fast. In any case, a big sump means your stuff has a harder time to flow out, and managing return pump speed is important.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I actually always had the opposite issue… my tank overflows because my sump pumps out too fast. In any case, a big sump means your stuff has a harder time to flow out, and managing return pump speed is important.

Not necessarily... the return pump chamber in my sump is very small and will run dry before pumping out more than a few gallons

 

[MnFish1]

I’ve had sumpless fish tanks for more than 40 years and I am now in the process of upgrading to a 120 + 30 tank. With sump. I’ve never had a sump and I’m terrified of the system overflowing onto my floor, one day.

I’m doing a lot of research and the more I read, the more terrified I become. So tell me, have you ever had a sump dump onto your floor ?

My system would be as « idiot proof » as possible, but still. From what I read, it’s impossible to prevent 100% of system failures.

Thanks for your input !

As others have probably said - you merely need to set it up - such that when the power is off, the sump does not overflow. Now - having said that - I have had multiple issues with water over the years - but my sump has never overflowed

 

[Idech]

Possibly, depending on how your return plumbing is set up, but it wouldn't hurt to have one on both pipes for safety/redundency even if it's not necessary to break the siphon

Can you post pictures of the siphon break in your system ? Just so I can get a better idea.

If anybody else has pictures of siphon breaks, I’d like to see them too.

 

[DIFish]

Hum, I’m going to have to challenge them about this then. They weren’t talking about a temporary slurping noise. They said a little bit of air goes through while the system runs and that makes noise. At least that’s what I thought they said.

Maybe they meant what you said.

I’ve put emphasis on not having a noisy system so they are trying to respect that.

I’ll let you know when I find out.

(there is also the fact that my first language is French. We discuss everything in French and the quote is in French as well. But I do all my research in English. So sometimes maybe translation gets in the way).

Are they maybe talking about a Durso or overflow that involves air? You shouldn’t hear anything from a submerged siphon break and the idea behind most 2 and 3 line overflows is that one line handles 95% of water at full siphon and is silent.

 

[Pickle_soup]

Never, ever had I had issues with sump overflow.

 

[Idech]

I found this in another thread. This reefer is saying what I believe they told me.

I also don't like drilling siphon breaks because they create some noise and salt creep from water exiting the siphon break during operation.

From this thread :

Sump return check valve?

Currently I'm only running a fairly new 29 Gallon DT on day 11 but we are planning on going 75+ within 6 months. I have been doing a lot of research before setting up a sump. I'm fairly certain I'm going to build the baffle system in a standard tank and whatnot. I've been looking into return...

www.reef2reef.com

I have pretty much made up my mind and should give the go ahead on Monday to start the build. BUT… I am still indecisive about having a check valve installed (I am now looking at the very expensive WYE check valve (144$ CAD) and also having a siphon break drilled.

For the siphon break I guess I can wait until installation day, but I need to decide before that for the check valve.

I keep going back and forth. Yes. No. Yes. I’m going mad, lol !

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Can you post pictures of the siphon break in your system ? Just so I can get a better idea.

If anybody else has pictures of siphon breaks, I’d like to see them too.

No, I'm not going to disassemble my return plumbing to get a picture of the hole I drilled for a siphon break.

But here is the idea... I basically have this setup, with different nozzles at the end, and I drilled a hole where the red dot is. The part with the dot/hole will face down when installed. For me, this was the easiest place to drill a hole at a point where the plumbing is high in the water. When the pump is off and the water level falls below the hole, the siphon is broken and water stops being sucked into the sump.

Really, reading the link from Melev's Reef I posted in #49 is your best bet for understanding the concept.

*The need for an added siphon break is dependent on how far underwater your return nozzle ends up. It's very possible to configure it to be shallow enough that the amount of water it siphons, before the tank gets low enough that it reaches air and stops the siphon, is not a problem for your sump to handle.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

"I also don't like drilling siphon breaks because they create some noise and salt creep from water exiting the siphon break during operation."

(Couldn't use the quote feature)

If you drill the hole in a part of the plumbing that is normally underwater (albeit very shallow), this will not be an issue.