Do fish flash when treating crypt?

jasonrusso · Apr 8, 2017

I'm currently treating my porcupine puffer who has crypt. I'm feeding him Dr G's anti-parasitic caviar which has chloroquine phosphate in it. I'm soaking his regular food in it because he isn't going to eat the small caviar pieces. I assume the suspension it is in is where the medicine is anyway.

My other fish (harelquin tusk, Kole Tang, foxface, dwarf lion) were not showing any real symptoms. Everyone is still eating and eating the medicated food as well.

Today, the tusk seems to be flashing a bit and the kole tang is a little timid.

Is it possible that they had a touch of crypt as well and this is a symptom of the parasite dying? I've been feeding the Dr g for 3 days.

Also, I'm treating in the DT. Please don't judge. I have a 210 gallon with big fish. It's not that easy to set up another 200 gallon QT tank.

ngoodermuth · Apr 8, 2017

It sounds like the tusk might be dealing with the crypto also :/ Some fish don't show the outward spots due to thicker mucous coatings, but get heavy gill infestations instead.

I don't have any experience with that medicated feed, hopefully one of the experts will chime in there...

Humblefish · Apr 8, 2017

If you're not treating the water, then Crypto theronts will just keep attaching, feeding and irritating the fish. Feeding CP laced food may shorten feeding time before the parasite drops off, but the bombardment will continue indefinitely - albeit shortened intervals.

jasonrusso · Apr 8, 2017

Humblefish said:
If you're not treating the water, then Crypto theronts will just keep attaching, feeding and irritating the fish. Feeding CP laced food may shorten feeding time before the parasite drops off, but the bombardment will continue indefinitely - albeit shortened intervals.

As I read on one of your threads, you ran with "ich managment" for years. You are obviously much more experienced and knowledgeable than me. Explain this to me please (and I mean that because I don't understand). If I feed the food with CP, which kills off the crypt on the animal much like the Frontline I put on my animals, then the crypt will not have a host. If I feed all the fish this for an extended period of time (say 6 months), wouldn't the parasite eventually starve itself out and be gone?

Humblefish · Apr 8, 2017

jasonrusso said:
As I read on one of your threads, you ran with "ich managment" for years. You are obviously much more experienced and knowledgeable than me. Explain this to me please (and I mean that because I don't understand). If I feed the food with CP, which kills off the crypt on the animal much like the Frontline I put on my animals, then the crypt will not have a host. If I feed all the fish this for an extended period of time (say 6 months), wouldn't the parasite eventually starve itself out and be gone?

The parasite is still feeding on the host, just for a shorter period of time. Typically, an ich trophont will feed for 3-7 days before dropping off to continue with the parasite's lifecycle. By feeding your fish CP laced food, the best you can hope for is that some of it leaches back out of their scales/pores and makes them an undesirable/distasteful host to feed upon. But even a day or two gives the trophont the energy it needs to carry on with what its instincts tell it to do: drop off, become a tomont and reproduce by releasing theronts (free swimmers) which seek out more fish to infect. Rinse & repeat. Even worse, I suspect that with each successful pass the strain of ich present in your DT will become more & more resistant to CP.

When you dose the water with copper or CP, you are doing so at a controlled, therapeutic level. This is designed to kill the theront instantaneously, as it emerges from a tomont, before it ever reaches a fish host. Once all the theronts are dead, the parasite's lifecycle has been broken.

However, if a theront is exposed to subtherapeutic copper or CP it may still survive long enough to reach a fish host, feed, drop off, etc. etc. And become more resistant to the chemical it was exposed to (but did not kill it) in the next pass. If you stop & think about it, this is exactly what happens when you feed your fish CP laced food. It leaches back out at some unknown concentration; fish which eat plenty of the food may leach back out enough to kill a trophont, but a reluctant feeder is going to leach back out a subtherapeutic level of the medication.

And one fish is enough to serve as the reservoir the parasite needs to continue its lifecycle.

So, food soaking is just another "ich management" tool. Because it will never 100% eradicate the parasites from your tank. And just like with Frontline, you'll need to keep feeding Dr G's forever to keep the "fleas and ticks" off of your fish. Both wear off after awhile, and both your dog & fish are living in an environment with a never ending supply of "bugs" to reinfest them.

The difference is you can't control what comes & goes in your backyard, but you CAN keep parasites & worms out of your aquarium...

drawman · Apr 8, 2017

+1. Also I think the impact of long term medication used in this way (IF it were to be effective) would likely risk harming the fish...to what degree who knows. Best to treat in quarantine and be done with ICH

jasonrusso · Apr 8, 2017

I just ordered 100g (I know, it's the smallest quantity they had) of CP just to have on hand. Is there anyway to treat the DT?

As I said, I have a 7" foxface and a 7" Harelquin Tusk. It's hard for me to put everyone in a HT

4FordFamily · Apr 8, 2017

Humblefish said:
The parasite is still feeding on the host, just for a shorter period of time. Typically, an ich trophont will feed for 3-7 days before dropping off to continue with the parasite's lifecycle. By feeding your fish CP laced food, the best you can hope for is that some of it leaches back out of their scales/pores and makes them an undesirable/distasteful host to feed upon. But even a day or two gives the trophont the energy it needs to carry on with what its instincts tell it to do: drop off, become a tomont and reproduce by releasing theronts (free swimmers) which seek out more fish to infect. Rinse & repeat. Even worse, I suspect that with each successful pass the strain of ich present in your DT will become more & more resistant to CP.

When you dose the water with copper or CP, you are doing so at a controlled, therapeutic level. This is designed to kill the theront instantaneously, as it emerges from a tomont, before it ever reaches a fish host. Once all the theronts are dead, the parasite's lifecycle has been broken. However, if a theront is exposed to subtherapeutic copper or CP it may still survive long enough to reach a fish host, feed, drop off, etc. etc. And become more resistant to the chemical it was exposed to (but did not kill it) in the next pass. If you stop & think about it, this is exactly what happens when you feed your fish CP laced food. It leaches back out at some unknown concentration; fish which eat plenty of the food may leach back out enough to kill a trophont, but a reluctant feeder is going to leach back out a subtherapeutic level of the medication. And one fish is enough to serve as the reservoir the parasite needs to continue its lifecycle.

So, food soaking is just another "ich management" tool. Because it will never 100% eradicate the parasites from your tank. And just like with Frontline, you'll need to keep feeding Dr G's forever to keep the "fleas and ticks" off of your fish. Both wear off after awhile, and both your dog & fish are living in an environment with a never ending supply of "bugs" to reinfest them. The difference is you can't control what comes & goes in your backyard, but you CAN keep parasites & worms out of your aquarium...

Agree and I have nothing to add! Well said

jasonrusso · Apr 9, 2017

I ask again, can you properly treat the DT. I got 100g on order from aquarium fish pharmaceuticals.

I bought a 29 gallon and a 20 gallon tank at Petco. I don't know how a 7" foxface and 7" tusk are going to accept that. I'd rather treat the whole tank, kill the ich and cure the fish.

Also, when it is said that inverts are not safe, does this include hermit crabs and snails as well?

CarrieB · Apr 9, 2017

jasonrusso said:
I ask again, can you properly treat the DT. I got 100g on order from aquarium fish pharmaceuticals.

I bought a 29 gallon and a 20 gallon tank at Petco. I don't know how a 7" foxface and 7" tusk are going to accept that. I'd rather treat the whole tank, kill the ich and cure the fish.

Also, when it is said that inverts are not safe, does this include hermit crabs and snails as well?

Copper kills inverts, including hermit crabs and snails and will make your live rock unusable with inverts in the future.

Have you considered one of those big rubber horse troughs?

jasonrusso · Apr 9, 2017

CarrieB said:
Copper kills inverts, including hermit crabs and snails and will make your live rock unusable with inverts in the future.

Have you considered one of those big rubber horse troughs?

Not copper, chloroquine phosphate.

CarrieB · Apr 9, 2017

jasonrusso said:
Not copper, chloroquine phosphate.

Sorry. I've never seen it recommended, but I am not an expert. I'd wait for @Humblefish to chime in.

cmcoker · Apr 9, 2017

From Humblefish post on CP.
"Chloroquine phosphate:Treats Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans), Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium), Brooklynella hostilis & Uronema marinum.

How To Treat - Chloroquine phosphate (CP) is a “new drug” that actually was widely used to control external protozoa in saltwater aquariums back in the 70s & 80s. It was even used in some aquarium medications sold at LFS. Nowadays CP requires a prescription to purchase legitimately, making it more difficult to obtain. Fast forward to today and thanks to the power of the Internet, CP has come roaring back! The biggest obstacle to overcome is obtaining pharmaceutical grade 99% pure CP I cannot stress the importance of this enough. Do not buy it from some guy on eBay or even an online vendor. The only way to be sure you are getting 99% pure CP is to get your vet (or an MD) to write a prescription which can then be filled by a compounding pharmacy. CP is a “one and done” medication, meaning you dose once and that’s it. There are no test kits for CP, so it’s important that you dose accurately using a digital scale. Also, don’t forget to dose any replacement water (from water changes, but not top-off) with CP. The dosage rates are as follows: * Prophylactic treatment is 40 mg per gallon. * For active infections (visible symptoms present), I typically will up the dosage to 60mg/gal. However, I cannot say if this is anymore effective than the "standard" 40mg/gal dose. * For Uronema marinum and really bad infestations, you can dose up to 80mg/gal. However, I have noticed appetite suppression and lethargy at this concentration.

As you can see, there is quite a bit of wiggle room between the minimum & maximum dosage. Practically speaking, 40mg/gal will treat all external protozoa issues… its just that the higher dosages may get the job done a little faster. Treatment lasts 30 consecutive days, and no carbon, UV, etc. may be used during this time (although it can be used later when you wish to remove the medication from the water.) A little quirk about CP is that light will degrade it; however it appears this mainly applies to the powder itself, so store your CP in a cool, dark place. Once in water, you may use an aquarium light with CP - however fish with velvet are light sensitive so I would only use ambient lighting (ex. lamp across the room) if treating for that. CP is NOT reef safe. In addition to killing your corals, it is a very strong algaecide.
Pros- Gentle on most fish (see DO NOT Use list below), a “one and done” medication that treats most external protozoa. CP is the closest thing there is to a “wonder drug” in our hobby.
Cons/Side Effect Expensive, hard to get (requires a prescription), powder is light sensitive. Attempts to feed CP laced food are usually not successful due to its bad metallic taste.
Based upon anecdotal experience (mine and others), DO NOT USE CP on Anthias, Wrasses or Hippo Tangs. For the time being, chelated copper (exs. Coppersafe, Copper Power) is the best alternative to use on these species. "
Link https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/192309/

So three things:
only buy from pharmacy,
Not reef safe,
Not safe for wrasses.

I'd recommend you read @Jeffdstafford s thread about pulling 40 to 50 fish out of his 500g to treat for ich. Maybe you can get some ideas of how to setup for your large fish...

Humblefish · Apr 9, 2017

CP would likely be biodegraded very quickly in a DT with rock & sand. Hypo (treats ich only) and copper are better choices because both can be measured on a daily basis to ensure therapeutic levels are being maintained. However, neither are reef safe and with copper it will take awhile to remove all of it from a system due to absorption.

Jeffdstafford · Apr 11, 2017

cmcoker said:
I'd recommend you read @Jeffdstafford s thread about pulling 40 to 50 fish out of his 500g to treat for ich. Maybe you can get some ideas of how to setup for your large fish...

Thanks to this community, my thread turned into a great resource for an all-in-one spot for every answer a new quarantine-er would need answers for. I'm the furthest thing from an expert, however it contains tons of valuable input from all the smart folks, and they helped me to successfully treat my fish and rid my tank of parasites for good..please let me know if I can help in any way!