Do fish have immunity?
- Thread starter AydenLincoln
- Start date
- Tagged users None
No is the simple answer
Sharkbait19
10K Club member
Think of treating fish with copper like treating yourself with an anti fungal infection (though velvet/ich are protozoan diseases). It kills the parasites, but you can get reinfected if you put yourself in a situation where you can get sick again. Hence quarantining all new fish.
The longer answer is yes, fish have the same basic immune system that other vertebrates have. They produce antibodies and they have a cell mediated immune systems like birds and mammals in response to recovering from past infectious disease causing agent exposures. They also have a basic means of resisting infection like we do with our skin, and that is a mucous - slime coat. Sharks and rays by the way do not have the same coordinated immune response.
what is critical to know is that like us, when we are stressed, malnutrition challenged, or overwhelmed with a massive exposure to a challenge (whether it is a protozoan, bacterial or virus) the disease can come back even if an immune response has been created from prior infection by itself, or aided by treatment (copper in this case)
So..... when you treat your fish copper that have been infected with velvet/Ich and return the to your tank, they will have some level of immunity, and if that tank has a low level of parasites still present (an incomplete fallow period or a re-introduction on a non-QT'd fish, or other), it may handle that exposure, due to it's immunity, and be fine.
IF, however that same fish becomes stressed by temp drop, or social upheavals by added a harassing tank mate, its immune response, and ability to resist disease developing from that low-level infection will fall.
Also, as lots of folks will tell you, there are species of fish that (powder blue/brown tangs) that have a genetic susceptibility to infection-disease and it will not take much to tip the balance on them
So if one follows the practice of QT'ing before bringing fish into the system, keeping social stress to minimum, maintaining water quality and temp and lighting consistency , and right/smart diet feeding, and resisting "ich magnets" you will be fine.
But I keep a tank running as a QT all the time because I do not have the discipline to not act on that impulse buy, and try to keep the DT as stable as I can.
best of luck
what is critical to know is that like us, when we are stressed, malnutrition challenged, or overwhelmed with a massive exposure to a challenge (whether it is a protozoan, bacterial or virus) the disease can come back even if an immune response has been created from prior infection by itself, or aided by treatment (copper in this case)
So..... when you treat your fish copper that have been infected with velvet/Ich and return the to your tank, they will have some level of immunity, and if that tank has a low level of parasites still present (an incomplete fallow period or a re-introduction on a non-QT'd fish, or other), it may handle that exposure, due to it's immunity, and be fine.
IF, however that same fish becomes stressed by temp drop, or social upheavals by added a harassing tank mate, its immune response, and ability to resist disease developing from that low-level infection will fall.
Also, as lots of folks will tell you, there are species of fish that (powder blue/brown tangs) that have a genetic susceptibility to infection-disease and it will not take much to tip the balance on them
So if one follows the practice of QT'ing before bringing fish into the system, keeping social stress to minimum, maintaining water quality and temp and lighting consistency , and right/smart diet feeding, and resisting "ich magnets" you will be fine.
But I keep a tank running as a QT all the time because I do not have the discipline to not act on that impulse buy, and try to keep the DT as stable as I can.
best of luck
Last edited:
Paul B
10K Club member
Excellence Award
Reef Tank 365
Reef Of The Month
Article Contributor
Rock Pool Reef Keepers
I agree with this part of Bnord's post.
But Ayden, I know you read much of the dribble I post so you know I am totally against quarantine, unless it is a new tank owned by a Noob.
Older tanks (years not months) are hindered by quarantine. That is of course my opinion as I am not the God of fish.
If you get your fish immune like if they survive parasites and are "properly" fed by not relying 100% on store bought food and have the "correct" aquascape where fish can hide naturally so you can't see them and they can't see you.
The fish will remain immune, unless you keep a totally quarantined tank in which case, the fish will never become immune because fish, like us need to be in contact with parasites at least occasionally to remain immune.
That is why we get shots for measles, covid, tetanus etc. We are not normally exposed to those things so we get shots. But if we lived in a place where those diseases were common, we would remain immune "if" we eat correctly, sleep well and don't freeze to death.
I realize I am in the vast minority on these forums, but I also have a very old tank that never been infected by anything and I don't have to quarantine. I also would never medicate because that. especially copper is a poison and not real good for any living creature.
But Ayden, good luck.
received and processing.... smileI agree with this part of Bnord's post.
But Ayden, I know you read much of the dribble I post so you know I am totally against quarantine, unless it is a new tank owned by a Noob.
Older tanks (years not months) are hindered by quarantine. That is of course my opinion as I am not the God of fish.
If you get your fish immune like if they survive parasites and are "properly" fed by not relying 100% on store bought food and have the "correct" aquascape where fish can hide naturally so you can't see them and they can't see you.
The fish will remain immune, unless you keep a totally quarantined tank in which case, the fish will never become immune because fish, like us need to be in contact with parasites at least occasionally to remain immune.
That is why we get shots for measles, covid, tetanus etc. We are not normally exposed to those things so we get shots. But if we lived in a place where those diseases were common, we would remain immune "if" we eat correctly, sleep well and don't freeze to death.
I realize I am in the vast minority on these forums, but I also have a very old tank that never been infected by anything and I don't have to quarantine. I also would never medicate because that. especially copper is a poison and not real good for any living creature.
But Ayden, good luck.
+ one but then I would do wouldnt I.I agree with this part of Bnord's post.
But Ayden, I know you read much of the dribble I post so you know I am totally against quarantine, unless it is a new tank owned by a Noob.
Older tanks (years not months) are hindered by quarantine. That is of course my opinion as I am not the God of fish.
If you get your fish immune like if they survive parasites and are "properly" fed by not relying 100% on store bought food and have the "correct" aquascape where fish can hide naturally so you can't see them and they can't see you.
The fish will remain immune, unless you keep a totally quarantined tank in which case, the fish will never become immune because fish, like us need to be in contact with parasites at least occasionally to remain immune.
That is why we get shots for measles, covid, tetanus etc. We are not normally exposed to those things so we get shots. But if we lived in a place where those diseases were common, we would remain immune "if" we eat correctly, sleep well and don't freeze to death.
I realize I am in the vast minority on these forums, but I also have a very old tank that never been infected by anything and I don't have to quarantine. I also would never medicate because that. especially copper is a poison and not real good for any living creature.
But Ayden, good luck.
How else can you keep about a dozen tanks over 30 plus years not QTing and no disease or serious parasite outbreaks. My first 10 years I had issues with itch until I changed how I keep my fish similar to Paul. I didn't know him then and was considered a nut case or liar whichever it matters not.
Sand and rocks have been transferred from tank to tank since I stopped using poisons to defeat parasites. However I also use Oxydators which I believe help greatly in keeping my fish parasite and disease free with initial introduction of fish anyway.
I buy fresh or frozen foods from the fish market and feed them with little if any preperation. I do but frozen foods like roterfers, copepods lobster eggs, brine and mysis shrimp. Dry foods are all but a thing of the past.
I have put fish in my tanks that have shown itch flicking against the rocks and sand only for them to be gone within 36 hours with none of my existing fish showing any signs of it.
Mother nature has all the answers, you just have to believe and follow her.
SlugSnorter
2500 Club Member
no. If you have a dog that gets bitten by a tick, removing the tick doesn't make them immune. Same thing with fish. (this isn't 1:1 but works as a basic idea)
SlugSnorter
2500 Club Member
Ich management works well in more mature tanks, but smaller or younger tanks can face issues. Especially with new reefers. Might be better for OP to QT for a little while until they have some more experience under their belt.
Personally I think there is more to it than just a mature tank. IMO foods play a big part along with the environment and limiting stress. Anh bew fish are floated in the bag to equalise temperature, I then pour the water with fish from the bag into a net then the fish goes straight into the DT.
Of course as those with closed minds would prefer I was.
No it will not.
If it did provide immunity to it, then your fish would get ich one time and never again. Because that's the only thing the copper is doing, it's getting rid of the current cycle.
The copper works because you kill all the parasites, and then you no longer have the parasites in your tank at all. Assuming you QT and/or go fallow on your tank for 72 days after removing all fish.
If ich comes back into your tank, then they will get ich just like before.
SlugSnorter
2500 Club Member
A tad uncalled for. Ich management can work, especially in mature tanks!
Personally, I prefer to QT. However proper management can work. Although its not without risk, and not as foolproof as QT IMO.
SlugSnorter
2500 Club Member
I agree there is more to it than a large mature tank, although personally i think the biggest factor is tank maturity.
SlugSnorter
2500 Club Member
Just one thing:
I have seen old very healthy tanks with no outbreaks, some QTed some not. Its not a be all end all, you don't need to personally love both, but I think its important to acknowledge that both have pros and cons, and that both can be very successful.
Ķ
Everybody is welcome to come and see my aquarium but if it's a bit to far to travel then you can always see it on YouTube.
Na hes not harsh just a none believer. They are everywhere. I have broad shoulders and faced ridicule before. That's because they are closed to alternatives been preached to as the only way and may have failed in the past as I did in my early years. Then I began to think outside the box that was constraining me and preventing mother nature from doing her healing and prevention.
Everybody is welcome to come and see my aquarium but if it's a bit to far to travel then you can always see it on YouTube.
Ich management is what I do currently. I even QT'd everything and still it managed to get in somehow.
At least it wasn't velvet again though, which is why I had to QT and go fallow to start with.
Sorry, and with a big smile, you have raised the interest of a vet parasitologist.
Ticks, by their very nature of 100s of millions of years evolution, are designed to avoid the hosts' immune response. They rely on avoiding the host response to infect at 3 different stages to lay eggs and have it all start all over again. (there are tick vaccines but that is a source for another discussion.)
Protozoal parasites, with few exceptions have evolved to engender a level of immunity that allows the parasite to persist in the host for a defined period and its environment to keep them from eliminating the host. I work with vaccines fro coccidia (Eimeria) in chickens and pigs, and they work splendidly and they are somewhere in the same family tree as ich. Indeed I am working on there is data published for preventative vaccines for FW Ich.
Those parasites that do not allow the host to survive are actually using that host as an amplification (called an intermediate host) to ensure that the definitive host can be re-exposed. Sorry folks, we are a feedlot for Malaria (Plasmodia) to ensure the next mosquito gets infected to carry out the sexual part of the cycle.
But Ich only has one host, and it needs to keep it from dying en mass
I see the PaulB position with older mature and experienced husbandry tanks for Ich. Where I do not yet have confidence is for Amyloodinium/Marine Velvet, in any age tank. Suppose immunity can/does exist not sure the rapid onset of infection, replication disease onset and death in our confined water volumes and regardless of what we do stressful conditions. Just don't know. And I introduced it to a healthy display early I my career.
