Do I Need Floor Supporting?!?

[Erica-Renee]

While I'm sure you're just trying to help, I would recommend that nobody follow the above table, as there are way too many variables to have a "rule of thumb" for header size vs. length, especially if we're talking about putting a tank over them.

Not to mention a Fully Studded Load Bearing wall requires NO Header . The force is pushed down equally on all studs with or without a header. If there is were a opening in the wall a header with Proper king and Jack studs would be required.. . When i build load bearing walls in basement I will used bridging and sometimes strapping or sheathing but almost never a Header

 

[Blackfish823]

Hello.. I would like to have your opinion. I live in a townhouse. I am looking to purchase a red sea reefer 250 (65 gallons total including sump , 3 feet) or possibly the reefer 170 (43 gallons and 2 feet). I understand that in townhouses, the load bearing wall is the division between your neighbors? The spot I'm looking at is in our living room. It is gonna be against a non load bearing wall the divides the living room and the kitchen. The tank will sit perpendicular to the joist. We have a finished basement with drop ceiling. The joist are 16 inch center. If I go with the reefer 250 it looks like it will sit on 2 joist. If i go with the reefer 170 and I center on the wall, it will sit perpendicular to only on 1 joist I have wood flooring. Should I worry about it? What do you think? Looking forward to your replies.

 

[Dan Korczak]

Holy moly this is a great writeup! Thanks for all these good nuggets of info!

 

[nycfishy]

Look for any thoughts if I should be concerned about below setup.

Red Sea Reefer 525xl (5 footer, ~140 gallons) will be on first floor in middlish of span parallel to joists with no supporting wall underneath.
Joists are sistered 2x6's joists across the entire floor, when we redid the house we had 2 inches of concrete poured for radiant heat tubing. Thinking the concrete floor will help spread the load over more of the floor but don't want to push my luck. For any structural engineers that might be able to do the math the span is about 14 feet from foundation wall to center steel support beam.

This concerning enough where I should consult an engineer?

 

[BedrockIOMC]

I think I will be alright with my little Reefer 170. I hope LOL

 

[nycfishy]

Look for any thoughts if I should be concerned about below setup.

Red Sea Reefer 525xl (5 footer, ~140 gallons) will be on first floor in middlish of span parallel to joists with no supporting wall underneath.
Joists are sistered 2x6's joists across the entire floor, when we redid the house we had 2 inches of concrete poured for radiant heat tubing. Thinking the concrete floor will help spread the load over more of the floor but don't want to push my luck. For any structural engineers that might be able to do the math the span is about 14 feet from foundation wall to center steel support beam.

This concerning enough where I should consult an engineer?

Any thoughts on this?

 

[cougarxr7]

Any thoughts on this?

I'm new to the group, I have a Red Sea 350 with a crawl space I just wanted to give my floor some extra support so I installed 6x6 with some floor Jack's that I bought at Home Depot.

 

[ESH]

I'm adding a Reefer 750 to my living room, sump will be in the basement. Reading through this thread, I'm still not certain what my best course of action would be and if I will need to add any additional support or not.
I'm estimating about 2000lbs of weight - 160gallon tank, water, stand, 200lbs of rock, equipment. 40gallon sump will be in the basement, along with all the sump equipment.

Here's some pic's of the floor looking up from the basement. If the beams were going to be perpendicular I'd say things would be fine, however they will be parallel.

-Wall on left is 6ft long
-The wooden beams shown above are 16" spacing, 2x10's
-There is cross bracing between beams.
-The first beam just past the 6' wall appears to have some sort of extra reinforcement nailed/glued to it. Not sure if it was a repair job or for something else.
-The beams are about 15' in length. As seen in the picture, one end is on poured concrete, the other, not seen, on a steel beam.
-Beams alternate as single, followed by a double. There are 14 beams across, going for about 19 ft in length.

Another view of the basement

-Wall is 8ft, 2' longer than poured concrete wall
-The electrical outlet in the photo matches up to being about 2.5' away from the longer concrete wall in the basement

Thoughts? Time to call in a structural engineer?

 

[kalare]

So, the tank is going to start 2.5' away from the supporting concrete wall in the basement? Where does the small 8' wall along the back of the tank line up, over the shorter concrete wall in the basement (but a couple feet longer)?

BTW, thank you for the great description of your framing...it really helps. Once I know the above answers, I can quickly check for you

 

[joeyamador]

I have an on staff engineer that works for our home building company. I have helped a few people on the forum if you need any help. PM me and I'll send you my number.

 

[joeyamador]

While I'm sure you're just trying to help, I would recommend that nobody follow the above table, as there are way too many variables to have a "rule of thumb" for header size vs. length, especially if we're talking about putting a tank over them.

I agree that there are no "rule of thumb" graphs but when in doubt refer to the i.r.c. (https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IRC2018/toc) there are span charts that are used and required as national minimum requirements unless local cities have specific amendments.. you can find out the maximum spans allowed/safe by size of wood and grade(#1,#2,or #3). I currently build homes in texas but have built in several states and this is the same in all states.. the only thing that changes this would be local amendments... some cities may require specific bracing or strapping. Anyone ever need any help I can have my engineer look at it for them. Happy reefing guys.

 

[ESH]

So, the tank is going to start 2.5' away from the supporting concrete wall in the basement? Where does the small 8' wall along the back of the tank line up, over the shorter concrete wall in the basement (but a couple feet longer)?

BTW, thank you for the great description of your framing...it really helps. Once I know the above answers, I can quickly check for you

The wall in the upstairs, goes about 18” to 24” past the concrete wall. I was able to verify this as there is an electrical outlet that is on the other side of the wall and I’m able to follow it from underneath. This is about 6” from the cement wall under neath, and 1ft from the end of the 8’ wall upstairs. Also, not sure if it matters but on the other side of the 8’ wall, half is interior, the other half exterior.

 

[kalare]

I agree that there are no "rule of thumb" graphs but when in doubt refer to the i.r.c. (https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IRC2018/toc) there are span charts that are used and required as national minimum requirements unless local cities have specific amendments.. you can find out the maximum spans allowed/safe by size of wood and grade(#1,#2,or #3). I currently build homes in texas but have built in several states and this is the same in all states.. the only thing that changes this would be local amendments... some cities may require specific bracing or strapping. Anyone ever need any help I can have my engineer look at it for them. Happy reefing guys.

Span charts are for specific loading, a large fish tank will never fit within those load criteria. I am a practicing and licensed structural engineer. I would never recommend using span charts; joists and beams need to be checked for large point loads from an aquarium, not overall 40 psf live load area loading.

The wall in the upstairs, goes about 18” to 24” past the concrete wall. I was able to verify this as there is an electrical outlet that is on the other side of the wall and I’m able to follow it from underneath. This is about 6” from the cement wall under neath, and 1ft from the end of the 8’ wall upstairs. Also, not sure if it matters but on the other side of the 8’ wall, half is interior, the other half exterior.

Your 2x10, I personally wouldn't trust them in this configuration. Quick check tells me they're 70% overstressed and failing deflection. I'd add another 2x10 next to the existing one that will be supporting the tank (so 2-3 joists). Screw them together with 1/4" SDS screws (no predrilling required) in two rows, about 1.5" from the top of the joist and the bottom of the joist @ 6" O.C. for the full length (15 feet). The final product should look like a line of screws @ 6" O.C. down the entire length of the sistered joists at the top and at the bottom. For 15 foot length, you should be using around 30 screws per line, 60 screws total per sistered member.

I hope that makes sense. BTW, I'm doing the same thing in my basement for a 180g going in...better to be safe. And even if they don't fail, you don't want your floor dipping due to excessive deflection...better to strengthen them.

 

[ESH]

Your 2x10, I personally wouldn't trust them in this configuration. Quick check tells me they're 70% overstressed and failing deflection. I'd add another 2x10 next to the existing one that will be supporting the tank (so 2-3 joists). Screw them together with 1/4" SDS screws (no predrilling required) in two rows, about 1.5" from the top of the joist and the bottom of the joist @ 6" O.C. for the full length (15 feet). The final product should look like a line of screws @ 6" O.C. down the entire length of the sistered joists at the top and at the bottom. For 15 foot length, you should be using around 30 screws per line, 60 screws total per sistered member.

I hope that makes sense. BTW, I'm doing the same thing in my basement for a 180g going in...better to be safe. And even if they don't fail, you don't want your floor dipping due to excessive deflection...better to strengthen them.

I think it does, I'm familiar with what needs to be done when you sister a joist. I think based on what you are saying, it would be worth me hiring someone local to come out and write up an estimate on doing this job for me. And just so I am following, what you are recommending is that one of the joists that is a single, becomes a double joist for the entire 15' span, and then because the tank width will go across multiple beams, then one of the joists that is already a double, becomes a triple or would that not be needed?

I'm seeing 2 challenges in the way of doing this. First one is I don't see any way to get a 15' beam down into the basement (possibly through a window well from the outside - contractor might know better)). Also, unfortunately, the HVAC system, water pipes, and X braces above the HVAC are in the way so I don't think this is going to be possible without a complete disassembly. Any other suggestions? Post from the ground up?

With that said, it does look like that first beam past the 6' wall is already has some sort of reinforcement but it doesn't seem nearly as much as you are describing, as there is a panel the partial length of the beam attached, in 2, 4.5' parts.
Essentially, the joists go as follows, starting with the 6' wall.
1st Joist: The 6' wall and joist extending out
2nd Joist: Single 2x10 with reinforcement (the reinforcement is 9' total, but is two 4.5' panels nailed to the beam on 1 side. Appears to be nailed 1.5" from the top and bottom of the joist @ 6" OC, but not the full length, stops at the HVAC)
3rd Joist: Double 2x10
This photo shows it better. The photo links to the flikr album and you can zoom in closer to see.
IMG_9570 by E, on Flickr

Thoughts?

 

[kalare]

Those don't look like 2x10 from this photo. The double joist you currently have, I would leave alone. The single that is near the wall needs reinforcement. An easier option would be to add a 4x4 post under the joist at the corner of the wall...you wouldn't lose much floor space and you could easily clip it into the joist and shoot it into the slab.

 

[ESH]

Those don't look like 2x10 from this photo. The double joist you currently have, I would leave alone. The single that is near the wall needs reinforcement. An easier option would be to add a 4x4 post under the joist at the corner of the wall...you wouldn't lose much floor space and you could easily clip it into the joist and shoot it into the slab.

You are correct they are actually all 2x12’s. 1.5” by 11.25” actual measuremen.

 

[davocean]

You are correct they are actually all 2x12’s. 1.5” by 11.25” actual measuremen.

It looks like a combination of 2x12 and LVL beams, which if so are very strong.
I can't imagine a 160g would cause any issues here.

 

[aruns]

Hi R2R,

Just got done with shoring up my floor support. Attached is a video of what I did. It's for a 150G 5 foot long tank. The tank will be backed up against an outside wall and will be perpendicular to joists.

My "crawl space" is actually about 8 feet deep under the tank and has uneven flooring. I used a 4x4 placed directly underneath along length of tank. I bought floor jacks from home Depot that are rated for 9000 lbs each at their longest. Fashioned 2'x2' boxes from scrap and poured a few inches of gravel to make a level footing. Used some scrap for Jack footing.

I had bought poly strap for plumbing - used some of that to secure and place the 4x4 first (I was doing this alone with a flashlight worked out nicely.

I am not a structural engineer. Could someone who has the knowledge comment on whether this would suffice. I figure the tank next to a load bearing wall, perpendicular to joists makes things less risky for me.
1. Would the box thingy provide a stable base for the jack base. Any chance of it settling or shifting?
2. I did not have a plumb, so used a weight tied to a thread as makeshift plumb. I couldn't get it to be exactly perpendicula, a few degrees off Should I be concerned about this?
3. I kinda winged it when it came to tensioning the jack. It was deceptively easy to turn the screw to lengthen the post and I was more concerned about lifting the joists off their primary support. Is there a right way to do this?

Cost to do all of this- about 130$. Peace of mind I am going to get from this if I have done it right - can't put a price to that

 

[kalare]

Hi R2R,

Just got done with shoring up my floor support. Attached is a video of what I did. It's for a 150G 5 foot long tank. The tank will be backed up against an outside wall and will be perpendicular to joists...
...

Looks good! Very overdone I think, so you have no need to worry. When doing the screw jacks, I would spin till tight be hand then probably do a 1/4 turn more with a wrench or lever or some sort. Make sure the surface they are sitting on is level and stable. I would kinda worry about the gravel moving around and settling. Could you slurry it and add some concrete or grout so there is no chance of it moving around? That'd be my only suggestion.

 

[aruns]

Thanks for the suggestion! I will mix up a thin slurry and pour and mix it with the gravel in place.

I turned the screw 3-4 times around after the post was snug! Didn't realize 1/4 turn is enough. Will fix that. Thanks again!