do I need to observe this fish after this qt protocol??

[sensei]

I have a lopezy tang in qt now.

I did TTM , 2 shoots of prazi and now he is about to finish 30 days of CP at 45mg / g and he is looking preaty healthy.

do I need to take him out of CP after the 30 days ond observe him more time before going to dt??

thanks a lot

 

[EmdeReef]

Was the tang ever sick or was this prophylactic treatment?
If no symptoms, I would do large water changes and then to be safe observe for a week or two. You made it this far, a little longer for extra safety won't make a big difference. Good luck!

 

[Big G]

Always a good idea to give the fish a bit of time in regular saltwater and great food to recoup from the meds and treatments to see if some other symptoms pop up.

 

[sensei]

fish had never symptoms, I used CP as preventive.
you are right I have gone all the way, so it is better to observe him 2 weeks without any meds.
thanks

 

[HotRocks]

fish had never symptoms, I used CP as preventive.
you are right I have gone all the way, so it is better to observe him 2 weeks without any meds.
thanks

I always go for 14 day observation after meds. Better to be sure! Like you said you went this far, a couple more weeks to be 100% disease free is well worth it IMO!

 

[Big G]

fish had never symptoms, I used CP as preventive.
you are right I have gone all the way, so it is better to observe him 2 weeks without any meds.
thanks

Yep. The meds help the fish, but the same meds weaken the immune systems of the fish which can result in secondary bacterial infections, Lympho, etc. Plus it gives the fish time to build up its strength. You never know for sure, it could get a tough reception by the existing fish.

 

[sensei]

understood.
Thanks a lot

 

[sensei]

I have another question:
lets suppose that the fish has velvet, and that CP treatment failed.
how much time after having the fish in water with no medicine would velvet develop on fish??

I have read that Humblefish has treated fish with hidoxicloroquine sulfate and velvet failed 2 times, I need to know how muchh time afte rthe fish was with out medicien that teh desease showed signs?

I am tretaing fish with CP but any ways I would like to know the worst case scenario in case a treatment fails

thanks a lot

 

[EmdeReef]

I have another question:
lets suppose that the fish has velvet, and that CP treatment failed.
how much time after having the fish in water with no medicine would velvet develop on fish??

I have read that Humblefish has treated fish with hidoxicloroquine sulfate and velvet failed 2 times, I need to know how muchh time afte rthe fish was with out medicien that teh desease showed signs?

I am tretaing fish with CP but any ways I would like to know the worst case scenario in case a treatment fails

thanks a lot

CP kills free swimming dinospores. Some studies indicate it may affect trophonts already on the fish, but it won't affect tomonts. Tomonts will continue division (perhaps suppressed) and the cycle and become dinospores which are susceptible to CP. In general, the cycle is broken in 10-14 days. However, almost nothing in nature is bulletproof. For that reason we treat for extended periods of time to ensure eradication.

There are scenarios under which you may fail at treatment, but following @Humblefish's protocol works in a vast majority of cases (he will be able to give the best view on the failure rate for properly administered treatment). Some reasons would include: CP purity and maintenance of the therapeutic dose as well as potentially a particularly virulent parasite strain. Assuming you were unlucky with either of those or another reason you would likely start seeing the parasite in days, after removing CP from water through water changes, and very likely after 7-10 days. I guess theoretically it's possible this to extend to the full 6-7 weeks but that would be pretty extreme.

 

[Big G]

Hard to say how long for velvet to reappear. Best example I can think of is Humblefish and I have discussed how fish treated with sub therapeutic levels of copper can take up to 30 days for velvet to reappear. And it usually comes roaring back, often without the usual symptoms. Vigilance is extra important.

 

[blkhwkz]

I like to throw a black molly or two in during the 2 week observation after meds, especially with tangs and my bad luck with them in the past. Any issues should pop up pretty quickly on them.

 

[sensei]

Hard to say how long for velvet to reappear. Best example I can think of is Humblefish and I have discussed how fish treated with sub therapeutic levels of copper can take up to 30 days for velvet to reappear. And it usually comes roaring back, often without the usual symptoms. Vigilance is extra important.

Yes, this is why I asked this question.
it happened to me 3 months ago. I treated 6 fish, I did TTM, prazi and observed for 6 weeks after that and in the 7th week.. BOOM... velvet appeared and killed everything. I never experienced velvet, when I understood what was happening, I was only able to save one puffer. In my experience velvet appeared 7 weeks after receiving fish!!!! I suppose that fish came in low copper water so copper inhibited velvet for 7 weeks, but I am not sure if the same thing happens with CP. or if CP fails fish would die during treatment with CP??

the difference is that now is that I included CP as a regular medication during QT to try an avoid what happened last time. Now I did TTM , 2 shoots of prazi and 30 days of CP at 45mg / g even without having any signs of sickness.
I know that doing TTM and CP is repetitive for ich, but I feel comfortable doing TTM at the beginning because I can assure fish start to eat with out medication and once I finish the 4 rounds of TTM and 2 shoots of prazi I can do CP just to be sure I combat velvet, brooks or uronema just in case!

 

[sensei]

CP kills free swimming dinospores. Some studies indicate it may affect trophonts already on the fish, but it won't affect tomonts. Tomonts will continue division (perhaps suppressed) and the cycle and become dinospores which are susceptible to CP. In general, the cycle is broken in 10-14 days. However, almost nothing in nature is bulletproof. For that reason we treat for extended periods of time to ensure eradication.

There are scenarios under which you may fail at treatment, but following @Humblefish's protocol works in a vast majority of cases (he will be able to give the best view on the failure rate for properly administered treatment). Some reasons would include: CP purity and maintenance of the therapeutic dose as well as potentially a particularly virulent parasite strain. Assuming you were unlucky with either of those or another reason you would likely start seeing the parasite in days, after removing CP from water through water changes, and very likely after 7-10 days. I guess theoretically it's possible this to extend to the full 6-7 weeks but that would be pretty extreme.

As explained above my concern is that velvet or other sickness would appear 7 weeks after CP, just as it happened with copper last time as I explained before.

 

[JoshKReef]

I like to throw a black molly or two in during the 2 week observation after meds, especially with tangs and my bad luck with them in the past. Any issues should pop up pretty quickly on them.

Have you ever used a molly and had it show signs? How quickly does it happen?

 

[sensei]

I like to throw a black molly or two in during the 2 week observation after meds, especially with tangs and my bad luck with them in the past. Any issues should pop up pretty quickly on them.

do you do the black molly test every time you treat a fish??

Humblefish taught me the black molly test in another thread, I was feeling afraid after treating the puffer that was in the velvet outbreak with CP. I observed the puffer for 6 weeks after finishing CP 80mg/g and he acted pretty normal.
But in this case I am treating a lopezi tang that had never any symptoms of disease, I am just curios to know if someboday has experience in reoccurrence of a disease after or during CP?
not sure if it acts like copper, that can inhibit disease for 7 wekks and them they come back roaring....

Thanks a lot for your answers

 

[EmdeReef]

As explained above my concern is that velvet or other sickness would appear 7 weeks after CP, just as it happened with copper last time as I explained before.

Where did you get CP from?

The reason I ask is that unlike copper, CP is considered stable in water (well beyond 30 days) and that’s why no need for supplemental dosing. I think in your case the biggest risk is if the purity of CP precluded you from reaching the therapeutic dose.

 

[sensei]

I live in Central America. I am using tablets for human consumption of a transnational manufacturer to assure quality. I am also dosing 45mg /g to be a little over the 40mg dose in preventive use.

 

[blkhwkz]

do you do the black molly test every time you treat a fish??

Humblefish taught me the black molly test in another thread, I was feeling afraid after treating the puffer that was in the velvet outbreak with CP. I observed the puffer for 6 weeks after finishing CP 80mg/g and he acted pretty normal.
But in this case I am treating a lopezi tang that had never any symptoms of disease, I am just curios to know if someboday has experience in reoccurrence of a disease after or during CP?
not sure if it acts like copper, that can inhibit disease for 7 wekks and them they come back roaring....

Thanks a lot for your answers

Yes I use the black molly now every time. Whether fish went through CP or copper if CP intolerant. I had to go fallow twice within a year and determined to make my QT protocols as good as possible without going to extremes. I know someone who puts his fish in QT for 8 months minimum and up to 18 months, I don't have that kind of patience, but my protocol now is around 8 weeks total.

I have not had any fish show signs of disease after CP that had before CP, but I am overly cautious now. Black mollies are around $2, sometimes less here so pretty easy way to give a little more piece of mind.

 

[puffy127]

Yes I use the black molly now every time. Whether fish went through CP or copper if CP intolerant. I had to go fallow twice within a year and determined to make my QT protocols as good as possible without going to extremes. I know someone who puts his fish in QT for 8 months minimum and up to 18 months, I don't have that kind of patience, but my protocol now is around 8 weeks total.

I have not had any fish show signs of disease after CP that had before CP, but I am overly cautious now. Black mollies are around $2, sometimes less here so pretty easy way to give a little more piece of mind.

How long do you wait to see if symptoms show up in the mollies before giving the all clear? What are you doing with the mollies afterwards?

 

[blkhwkz]

How long do you wait to see if symptoms show up in the mollies before giving the all clear? What are you doing with the mollies afterwards?

Usually 2 weeks, sometimes a bit longer. As they have no natural immunity to saltwater fish disease when you first get them, they should show signs within that time. I put them in one of my reef tanks after quarantine. Last one lived a few months and then jumped, probably chased by another fish.