Do you agree with Paul B's method (no QT) ?

[Bleigh]

This is interesting, I never heard of Herd Immunity but I would like to know more about it.
What is it?

Good video for it. I tried to find something less than a minute, but couldn’t.

 

[Paul B]

Very Interesting. Thank you Bleigh. I never thought of Vaccinations quite like that.

 

[M1ke1980]

I read Paul's post about his method (no quarantine") and I liked it. It sounds logical and it's the way nature works. However, I see that there are way more people who quarantine fish than those who don't. So then his method is not welcomed? And it's not right? What do you think?

(https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-other-way-to-run-a-reef-tank-no-quarantine.534274/)

I would never add a new fish, coral, or anything that’s wet without quarantine. It’s like going out and have unprotected sex with strangers. It’s fun until one of them has std.

 

[Paul B]

It’s like going out and have unprotected sex with strangers. It’s fun until one of them has std.

OMG People just aren't going to get it.

 

[dieselkeeper]

I haven't read every single post. This might have already been said. With all the collection of fish being stopped, QT is a must. We as hobbyists, must do our part to preserve the natural environment.

 

[Paul B]

, QT is a must.

That is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. I feel with all the fish being taken from the sea WE MUST ASSURE THAT THEY ONLY DIE OF OLD AGE.

The vast majority of fish we buy die in a year or two (or while in quarantine) and that is unacceptable which is why I came up with this system that keeps fish healthy and living much longer than the norm.

You can't make a statement that QT is a must as that kills more fish than anything else. Just look at the disease forum.

We need to get fish to live for many years so we don't keep taking them from the sea. If we kept all our fish for 15 or 20 years we would hardly remove any fish from the sea and eventually we may even spawn enough of them to put them back. To me it is very irresponsible to take or buy fish and allow them to die because we don't know how to care for them. If we did that to dogs, people would be protesting all over the place.

I am sorry, I just love fish and get very disgusted when I see people killing them with kindness because they just don't understand.
I really like it when people say (usually a Noob) I am irresponsible for not quarantining when I have such long lived spawning fish. It boggles my mind.

How many people here have quarantined fish that are spawning and never get sick? Anybody?
I know there has to be a few.
All my paired fish spawn constantly

Fish spawn constantly and if someone living in the tropics wanted to it is very easy to get these things to a size where we can release them to the wild. Each fish products thousands and in some fish millions of eggs every few weeks. It wouldn't take much to raise them but for that you need access to tropical water and sunlight. The world is full of such places and I have been to dozens of them.
And if I was a lot younger, and a lot richer, I may have done just that.

The last time I went to Tahiti I flew over dozens of uninhabited Islands where fish could be raised to put back into the sea. Corals also but unfortunately there isn't any money in that so we don't do it.

We really need to start putting fish back into the sea because if we keep removing them, you know what will happen. Like the last white Rhino died last year and now there are no more and will never be any more.

 

[ca1ore]

I think there are pros/cons to QT and not QT and the pendulum seems to swing back and forth. Right now, on R2R, it’s pointing towards QT .... and a highly medicated version of QT at that. My personal opinion, and I don’t intend this in any pejorative way, is that medicated QT can be a useful tool for the novice but is perhaps less necessary for the more experienced. I isolate all new fish in a separate, but small, reef tank and observe them for a number of weeks. I don’t treat unless something really nasty appears.

 

[Mortie31]

@Paul B sadly this thread has ended up going around in the circles that they always do, one thing I don’t understand is why no one can show long term survival after quarantining and to the best of my knowledge this must be the 4th thread in which you have asked people to come forward who have succeeded. How do they feed? have they quarantined everything? Have they ever had a CI outbreak? This would be really useful information to share, even if it’s only 5 years worth of info to share... I see dozens of people advocating quarantine but what is the long term outcome? Are all of these tanks shut down after a few years? Something is missing in there arguments, what’s happening in years 2,3, 5 etc. Quarantine isn’t new it’s been around for years, this data must be available..
People say your tank is a unique system that can’t easily be replicated, that may be true, good fish selection, husbandry, biodiversity and feeding are easy to do, but one thing I can say and agree with you on is that I don’t see many fully quarantined tanks that boast longevity and inspiration... unless people start to come forward and show long term success quarantining I don’t see the point in doing it...what’s the point if fish only live 5 years or less... my own personal view is that most of the very vocal advocates of quarantine leave the hobby for whatever reason very quickly...

 

[Paul B]

For most of my life I dove for lobsters here in New York. Lobsters live in holes in rocks or under them. Rarely, if they can't find room in rocks they will dig a hole in the sand.

When we dove we almost always found lobsters in old tires. If there are no tires, or rocks we didn't find lobsters.
There was a cove about a mile long near my marina that was unused and for about 50 years had nothing in it but abandoned, sunk barges from an abandoned sand mining operation. The water was only about 7' deep at high tide. A few years ago the Army Core of Engineers removed all those barges and now that is just a beautiful empty lagoon. At low tide it is to shallow for all but the smallest boats but it has a mud bottom.

A place such as that could be used to raise thousands of lobsters to ease the catching of them in the rest of the Long Island Sound where they are all but fished out.
All that is needed is old tires or cinder blocks, both of which we have millions of.

The tires would need cages or some type of fencing around them because lobsters eat each other.
I think I could raise thousands of lobsters there and their food, which is fish are all over the place. Menhaden or as we call them, bunker are there by the millions. There are so many that they die and pollute the water as it gets to warm. Those fish used to be used for oil after we killed all the whales. Now they are used for bait and little else. (they do use some of them in the cosmetics industry)

Anyway, the point of this is that we have the resources to do something about all the killing of animals from the sea, we just choose, because of finances to do nothing.
It would take a Government agency to do this and we know how efficient the Govt. is.

 

[Paul B]

and I don’t intend this in any pejorative way, is that medicated QT can be a useful tool for the novice but is perhaps less necessary for the more experienced.

This is correct, I say that all the time and I said it in my book. New tanks will not be healthy no matter who set it up. If I set up a new tank I also would probably have problems.

But I feel after a few years we should learn how to keep fish with their normal immunity so they never get sick. If we don't learn that, we are not trying very hard. Just my opinion.

 

[Paul B]

Mortie, that is my point. Quarantining has always been with us especially in the beginning when we didn't know a thing about salt water fish. I know because I was there and just as stupid. I was killing more fish than Starkist Tuna.

But you are correct, of all the thousands of tanks that were started, where are they? How many of them are even 20 years old which is about the age of a lot of fish we keep. What happened to them?
I don't know but I do know that virtually all the people who used to be in this hobby when I got in are not in it any more. Even many of the people that were here when I started my thread here on this forum in 2011 are gone. And that isn't even the age of a hermit crab.

I have gone through these quarantine discussions many times on many forums for many years so they are not new to me. But this hobby is mostly Noobs that have been here just a few short years and they get out for whatever reason.

If you are only in it for 10 or 15 years you can't even know if you are successful because most fish live longer than that.

If you want to have a meaningful discussion on the virtues of quarantining at least have some old fish to prove your point. One Member on here so far has a 27 year old yellow tang and that is fantastic, but how about another one.

Remember I keep saying, if you have any fish and it dies from anything except jumping out or old age, you failed. Sorry but I think that fish felt the same way.

 

[Shaun_in_Cali]

This is interesting, I never heard of Herd Immunity but I would like to know more about it.
What is it?

Herd immunity is how individuals with no inherent disease resistance are protected because individuals with resistance (e.g through vaccination) stop the transferral of the disease.

Herd Immunity: How does it work? — Oxford Vaccine Group

Dr Manish Sadarangani explains how herd immunity works and why vaccinating children is important.

www.ovg.ox.ac.uk

 

[Mortie31]

Good video for it. I tried to find something less than a minute, but couldn’t.

Interesting he mentioned measles as in the uk we have just officially lost herd immunity, due to reduced numbers of people getting the MMR vaccination...

 

[dieselkeeper]

The vast majority of fish we buy die in a year or two (or while in quarantine) and that is unacceptable which is why I came up with this system that keeps fish healthy and living much longer than the norm.

I started QT after I lost all my fish due to a new arrival that had an unseen disease. Most people start QT for the same reason I did. After losing 2 fish to cupramine, I now observe for weeks before adding meds. Only if needed. I'm open to a better way to add fish to my display without wiping out all the fish. I will go back and reread your thread.

 

[Paul B]

You are better off reading this one as it is not as nuts as the one we are on.

A discussion on immunity

I have been thinking about this for seven or eight years and finally, through scientific research and my experimentation I think I have figured out something that may change the way we run aquariums. For many years I have been feeding live blackworms, live amphipods and live new born brine...

www.reef2reef.com

Or these.

The Advantages of keeping a Natural Tank

The advantages of keeping a natural Reef We all know that there are many ways to run a tank but I would like to start a thread about keeping a natural reef. The ocean is natural and the fish there are all very healthy and never have to worry about getting sick, getting enough food, getting...

www.reef2reef.com

How to make a Tank Last for 40 years with few problems

In My Opinion, how I feel a reef tank could be run to last over forty years with "Almost" no problems. First of all this will not be for Noobs as I realize most things printed for this hobby are. There are many other people besides Noobs and if many Noobs tried these methods, they would fail...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[mfollen]

Flukes are not something healthy fish should live with in a glass box. These parasites are larger than ick and can cause serious damage and/or stress.

Those alone make it worth QTing. Not fair to the fish.

 

[Paul B]

I have never had a problem with flukes.

 

[mfollen]

They’re out there though.

 

[Paul B]

Yes, I sometimes see them on fish in a store, but for some reason I never had a problem with them and I never dipped a fish to remove them. maybe they just leave a fish after a while in a natural tank. But I am guessing. I am sure none of my fish have them as they have all been with me for a long time and none of them ever scratches.

 

[MnFish1]

If you start a bare bottom tank with all dry rock and add fish that were quarantined in copper before added, how could that tank have ich?

If you add a snail that hasn't been quarantined (or rock or whatever) - for 76 days - It can add CI to yoru system.