Does Algaefix stay in the tank?

[WallysWorld]

Does AlgaeFix stay in the water column? Does it bind with rock or in biological tissues? Will carbon or other filtration methods remove it? I'm assuming that water changes over time will reduce its concentration. I also think that there must be some method that lowers or weakens the concentration otherwise there wouldn't be instructions to dose regularly.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Spare time]

@taricha ?

 

[rtparty]

It is the same thing as Vibrant and the big Vibrant thread goes over a lot of that. IIRC no one actually knows what happens and how long it takes

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

It does likely bind to mineral and organic surfaces over time and gets depleted. As noted, the vibrant studies showed it did decline.

 

[taricha]

Does AlgaeFix stay in the water column? Does it bind with rock or in biological tissues? Will carbon or other filtration methods remove it? I'm assuming that water changes over time will reduce its concentration. I also think that there must be some method that lowers or weakens the concentration otherwise there wouldn't be instructions to dose regularly.

I'll have some more detailed info on what to expect if using these in a few days, but quickly....

(chart: Algaefix dosed every 3 days and DinoX dosed every 2 days, per bottles)
Upon first use these polyquats seems to bind out of the water over a day or two. With recurring doses they can accumulate in the water where they slowly decrease over a number of weeks. Fresh GAC - added on day 40 in above chart - can rapidly remove them from the water.

 

[WallysWorld]

I'll have some more detailed info on what to expect if using these in a few days, but quickly....

(chart: Algaefix dosed every 3 days and DinoX dosed every 2 days, per bottles)
Upon first use these polyquats seems to bind out of the water over a day or two. With recurring doses they can accumulate in the water where they slowly decrease over a number of weeks. Fresh GAC - added on day 40 in above chart - can rapidly remove them from the water.

@taricha I do not know what "Fresh GAC" is that you added on day 40. Thanks for the chart and research above.

 

[xCry0x]

@taricha I do not know what "Fresh GAC" is that you added on day 40. Thanks for the chart and research above.

Gac - > carbon

 

[taricha]

@taricha I do not know what "Fresh GAC" is that you added on day 40. Thanks for the chart and research above.

new Granulated Activated Carbon. (old GAC that's been in a tank for a while can run out of capacity for removing this. )

 

[Muffin87]

I'll have some more detailed info on what to expect if using these in a few days, but quickly....

(chart: Algaefix dosed every 3 days and DinoX dosed every 2 days, per bottles)
Upon first use these polyquats seems to bind out of the water over a day or two. With recurring doses they can accumulate in the water where they slowly decrease over a number of weeks. Fresh GAC - added on day 40 in above chart - can rapidly remove them from the water.

Is there a thread about Fauna Marin DinoX containing a polyquat?

Is Fauna Marin DinoX basically another AlgaeFix-like product similar to UWC Vibrant?

Thanks!

 

[taricha]

Is there a thread about Fauna Marin DinoX containing a polyquat?

Is Fauna Marin DinoX basically another AlgaeFix-like product similar to UWC Vibrant?

Thanks!

Algaefix and Dino-X are both clearly labeled polymer algaecides (polyquats) that are dosed to similar concentrations, and act similarly.

But the actual chemical is different. Randy here provides a good educated guess as to the chemical identity of Dino-X.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/d...hylmethanamine-distinct-from-algaefix.926043/

Probably clearest demonstration that they are different chemicals is that it's usually observed in response to a Dino-X dose, corals close up. This is rare for Algaefix. Even though the dosages are pretty similar in size: Algaefix ~1.2ppm active ingredient, Dino-X ~0.75ppm.

 

[xCry0x]

Algaefix and Dino-X are both clearly labeled polymer algaecides (polyquats) that are dosed to similar concentrations, and act similarly.

But the actual chemical is different. Randy here provides a good educated guess as to the chemical identity of Dino-X.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/d...hylmethanamine-distinct-from-algaefix.926043/

Probably clearest demonstration that they are different chemicals is that it's usually observed in response to a Dino-X dose, corals close up. This is rare for Algaefix. Even though the dosages are pretty similar in size: Algaefix ~1.2ppm active ingredient, Dino-X ~0.75ppm.

Really appreciate the work you did. It's super helpful to be informed on what is being put into the tank, especially how carbon can rapidly remove the chemicals should the dosing have negative effects.

Curious if you have ever looked at brightwell razor in your research on this topic.

It's another one that seems to be a bit of a mystery bottle - labeled as a polymer, flocculant, and not an algaecide.

 

[xCry0x]

Especially curious given @taricha 's statement in the main vibrant/algaefix thread

One final note on known properties and uses of polixetonium chloride is that this same chemical(nih.gov) under the name Bubond 60 is also used as a coagulant / flocculant. This helps shed light on reports of increased water clarity with aquarium usage of the product.

The bottle of Razor states:

- Complex systematic cleaning polymer product, specifically formulated to clean aquarium live rock surfaces and decorations systematically.
2. Flocculation of particulate matter from leftover food, detritus and precipitation

It also states at the end of the label

Caution: Not an algaecide. Do not use with algaecide.

That said, the behavior seems to be similar to algaecides in that it very effectively knocks out algae.

But I'm not a scientist and don't know anything about any of this. Just don't love ingredient lists that state:

Ingredients: Purified water, proprietary blend of polymers, proprietary base.

 

[Dan_P]

I'll have some more detailed info on what to expect if using these in a few days, but quickly....

(chart: Algaefix dosed every 3 days and DinoX dosed every 2 days, per bottles)
Upon first use these polyquats seems to bind out of the water over a day or two. With recurring doses they can accumulate in the water where they slowly decrease over a number of weeks. Fresh GAC - added on day 40 in above chart - can rapidly remove them from the water.

There should be a GoFundMe sponsored by R2R to support and encourage your investigations. They are soooooo useful. Compared to the value of any bottle of miracle cure, the money would be better spent in your lab!

 

[taricha]

Curious if you have ever looked at brightwell razor in your research on this topic.

It's another one that seems to be a bit of a mystery bottle - labeled as a polymer, flocculant, and not an algaecide.

I haven't gotten my hands on a bottle. I have listened to brightwell people talk about it and read a bit about it.

That said, the behavior seems to be similar to algaecides in that it very effectively knocks out algae.

There are many polymers in use in water systems for flocculation, and many others in cosmetics, these all go into water system and are studied for their toxic effects. Some are cationic (+), like the polyquat algaecides. Others are anionic (-) or non-ionic.
Papers like this ....
Effects of Synthetic Polyelectrolytes on Selected Aquatic Organisms

...paint the general picture that cationic polymers can be very toxic, but anionic and non-ionic polymers are usually far less toxic. (Toxicity against algae for cationic polymers like Algaefix and Dino-X is, of course the entire point.)

So there are many polymers that are used as flocculants that would be very low in toxicity to algae ("not algaecide") and most other aquatic organisms.

Randy (the actual polymer chemist) may have some insight as to what sort of polymers would be likely to be useful in dislodging biofilms.

"Caution: Not an algaecide. Do not use with algaecide."

@xCry0x You should totally do this in a container of water.
Take a cup of tank water, add a drop of Razor and a drop of Algaefix. Stir a little. The above warning may be because oppositely charged polymers could form large complexes and this might be visible as a precipitate. (This is a guess, I'm not sure if that would happen or not. )

 

[xCry0x]

There should be a GoFundMe sponsored by R2R to support and encourage your investigations. They are soooooo useful. Compared to the value of any bottle of miracle cure, the money would be better spent in your lab!

Right! I just want to know what the heck I'm putting, or considering putting, into my tank.

Have had red turf algae for years and the "fix" being advocated is a blend of Razor + Clean.

As someone that used Vibrant in the past heavily thinking it was magic bacteria, I have a huge degree of skepticism towards all this stuff now. Its like the fitness supplement industry -- magic pill makes you lose algae!

 

[xCry0x]

@xCry0x You should totally do this in a container of water.
Take a cup of tank water, add a drop of Razor and a drop of Algaefix. Stir a little. The above warning may be because oppositely charged polymers could form large complexes and this might be visible as a precipitate. (This is a guess, I'm not sure if that would happen or not. )

Fun! mixed about 5ml of each in a cup - nothing happened.

My new found skepticism towards these chemicals just assumed they say that because its already algaefix and they don't want you double dosing

 

[taricha]

My new found skepticism towards these chemicals just assumed they say that because its already algaefix and they don't want you double dosing

Well, mixing polymers is a good way to do something you don't intend to. So yeah, plenty of reasons to say don't use that + algaecide at the same time, even without it being an algaecide.

here's Brightwell head Jack Kent talking about Razor over a year ago.
discussion of Razor from 17:25 to 25:00 in the video