Does anyone dose ammonia and/or how would one try?

[J1a]

I believe that many reef tanks could benefit from ammonia dosing, there is nothing wrong with it if it is done correctly(I believe it is better than nitrate dosing). If you dose ammonium you need keep in mind that when ammonia is added by fish, it is accompanied by some B vitamins(I believe), and trace elements and organic carbon from fish food, and because of this, I believe that dosing ammonium is more likely to create imbalances than ammonia added by fish, except for a high phosphate imbalance. If you dose ammonium, it is more likely that you will need to dose trace elements, and B vitamins(dosing B vitamins is easy, and is cheap long-term.

I believe that B vitamins are needed for heterotrophic bacteria in a reef tank. I believe that heterotrophic bacteria can compete with cyano, I believe that the bacteria can be used as food for at least many types of corals, and I think that they are capable of consuming all of the DOC that comes from algae.

If an algae filter is big enough I believe that ammonium dosing can be used to control the phosphate level.

I dose ammonium chloride on a daily basis. As for Vit B complexes, I dosed a small (maybe not that small after all) amount into the tank, and was rewarded with explosive dino growth. So got to be more careful with that.

 

[ceaver]

I dose ammonium chloride on a daily basis. As for Vit B complexes, I dosed a small (maybe not that small after all) amount into the tank, and was rewarded with explosive dino growth. So got to be more careful with that.

What is your daily dosage per volume and what strength is your solution?
Thanks!

 

[keithIHS]

@Randy Holmes-Farley et al I've been dosing nitrate to keep it up around 3-5 ppm to keep dinos in check, but my alkalinity is creeping up (no corals yet). I've been thinking of dosing ammonium chloride instead to keep nitrate up without the alk boost. Will dosing ammonium indeed keep nitrate up? Will it help keep dinos in check? If nitrate drifts low despite dosing ammonium, should i dose more ammonium to keep nitrate up? Thanks.

 

[Miami Reef]

@Randy Holmes-Farley et al I've been dosing nitrate to keep it up around 3-5 ppm to keep dinos in check, but my alkalinity is creeping up (no corals yet). I've been thinking of dosing ammonium chloride instead to keep nitrate up without the alk boost. Will dosing ammonium indeed keep nitrate up? Will it help keep dinos in check? If nitrate drifts low despite dosing ammonium, should i dose more ammonium to keep nitrate up? Thanks.

Here’s a beautiful quote from Randy. I don’t think anyone could have said it better than him:

When nitrate is produced from ammonia (e.g., from foods), alkalinity is depleted to the tune of 2.3 dKH depleted for each 50 ppm of nitrate produced.

Likewise, when nitrate is consumed in any fashion (except removed by water change), that amount of alkalinity is exactly added back.

Thus, if nitrate is steady at any level (and not being dosed), it is having no ongoing impact on alkalinity.

If you are dosing nitrate and it is consumed, you effectively add 2.3 dKH for each 50 ppm of nitrate dosed and consumed.

From this thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/nitrates-and-alkalinity.889647/

 

[keithIHS]

Well that sounds like exactly what I want. I don't want to increase feeding because I'm having to use GFO to control phosphate, so ammonium dosing sounds great. Are there any other gotchas? Like maybe ammonium actually feeds dinos so makes dinos worse? I really don't like dinos. I battled them for 6 months and finally won. I really don't want to go back there.
My nitrates naturally drift down, probably due to the hair algae on the backside of my aquascape and macroalgae in the refugium. Do I dose ammonium to keep nitrate at 3-5 ppm?

 

[brandon429]

Ammonia dosing has no pattern correlation to dinos whatsoever. Feel free to proceed.

Given the variability of today's nitrate tests, I wouldn't put much stock into a reading that says there's concerning low levels, requiring your assistance. Some of the high end digital readers seem consistent in the comparison threads but I'm always shocked at the range of readings posted from one sample in the test kit compare posts

I bet adding ammonia to your reef has a neutral impact overall.

 

[keithIHS]

Thanks, I'll try ammonium.
I'm using the Nyos NO3 test kit. It seems pretty good, at least for me in a relative sense. When my NO3 gets to 3, I add 1/4 tsp of NaNO3 (~130 gallon tank and sump), and it's back up to 5 the next day. I've been adding 1/4 tsp about once a week for the past month, and it has been consistent. Also, when I had dinos, it was the Nyos test that said I had 0. After I pulled most of my macroalgae and put my roller filter on full bypass, I got my nitrates up to about 30. Then I let my macro grow and closed the filter bypass and my NO3 started to fall. Seems consistent.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

@Randy Holmes-Farley et al I've been dosing nitrate to keep it up around 3-5 ppm to keep dinos in check, but my alkalinity is creeping up (no corals yet). I've been thinking of dosing ammonium chloride instead to keep nitrate up without the alk boost. Will dosing ammonium indeed keep nitrate up? Will it help keep dinos in check? If nitrate drifts low despite dosing ammonium, should i dose more ammonium to keep nitrate up? Thanks.

I think the answer to all of those questions is yes.

 

[keithIHS]

I think the answer to all of those questions is yes.

Sounds like a plan. Thanks everyone.

 

[Subsea]

Ammonia dosing has no pattern correlation to dinos whatsoever. Feel free to proceed.

Given the variability of today's nitrate tests, I wouldn't put much stock into a reading that says there's concerning low levels, requiring your assistance. Some of the high end digital readers seem consistent in the comparison threads but I'm always shocked at the range of readings posted from one sample in the test kit compare posts

I bet adding ammonia to your reef has a neutral impact overall.

Kudos to this post.

While ammonia dosing does not inhibit Dino’s directly, the ammonia supports competitors of dino.

 

[brandon429]

Team

Look at this study in opposition

Ammonia Pegged at 8.0 After 50% Water Change, Nitrate 10ppm, What's is happening!

Okay 2 to 3 days ago everything was fine, normal tank. First sign something was up was my tank got cloudy for about a day, fish seemed lethargic and unwilling to eat. I ran my test and right away I noticed The Ammonia was as high as the test could read, I didn't believe it so I checked my other...

www.reef2reef.com

Summary of that thread: fully opposite to findings here in this 14 page thread, claims lost ability to control ammonia at month nine

That is a study in contrast: what measuring by non seneye causes. He's not adding test load ammonia like this thread, all the cycle umpires there tell him the actual tank ammonia can't be processed, just stopped all of a sudden no fishes lost, no meds dosed, due to a water change ammonia appeared then went to 8ppm* and it's been days on end.


Where for fifteen coming pages, any tank shown here who wants to participate in seneye tracking handles extra load ammonia in 5 minutes. That should be fascinating to anyone who likes marine bacteria studies


*before any guessing begins: see if Randy's article on ammonia in the reef tank mentions any place it is stored up, for mass release (doesn't happen) so no leaping to 'sandbed got disturbed'

Until we see a seneye showing a water change killing all active bacteria, we wouldn't assume there's a secret input for ammonia here. It's test misread #3553

I want it linked here for a study in contrast

14 pages of tanks on seneye, no problem

1x tank on non seneye, and no tank symptoms= somehow cannot handle normal ammonia loads much less a test load. This is a tank that could not participate in your ammonia dosing thread if indeed their cycle simply stopped running, without challenge.

 

[brandon429]

Readers
What you see in this thread about ammonia dosing to running reefs is what reef tanks do

All of them

Your pico reef

Your nano reef

Your massive sps reef all the same ability to instantly handle bioload increase as seen by detailed digital measures.

Just because someone doesn't own a seneye doesn't mean their tank uncycled, this thread of 14 pages of ammonia loading all manner of reefs is an insight into the inherent ammonia control earned by anyone who stacks reef rock inside an aquarium with pumps on. We're all copying the same surface area layout and positioning, only the scaling changes (pico vs large reef) but not the % ability to handle bioload above steady state

All reefs can do this.


The tank above is enduring a false stall misreading test, that condition claimed in the thread can't occur in reefing and nobody has a single example of it ever occurring on a calibrated seneye

 

[brandon429]

It is important these threads meet. Here is another seneye tank that doses ammonia.

Adding Ammonia to Established Tank for Nitrate Control

Hey guys. I am struggling to keep my nitrate levels up on a newly established tank. What are your thoughts on dosing low amounts of Ammonia to feed corals and produce Nitrate? Aiming for around 10ppm Nitrate but stuck around 0-3ppm. Was planning on diluting my ammonia down to 1% and dosing 4x a...

www.reef2reef.com

the patterns listed in this thread are vitally important to updated cycling science / I love this thread.

 

[Kato]

Just came across this thread and was pleased to see others seem to have similar beliefs as myself. What I love about this hobby is really how anecdotal everything is and we tend to base conclusions on what we can test (ie the truth being nitrate at 5-10 for example which I consider has no meaning). My beliefs may be totaly wrong too as it's impossible to prove. You make a change, and observe. For a long time. What we knew even just 10 years ago around various topics turned out to be wrong. Yet it still lingers in the hobby (as it comes up in searches as the truth)

I came to a couple of conclusions a few years ago, just based on my own observations. The way I reef is typically:

1) Corals prefer ammonia and is the main food source (besides light)
2) Nitrate is really a byproduct of your ammonia. Some corals may take it but takes extra energy. Keep it traceable thats it
3) Having some Nitrate number in your tank says nothing about ammonia supply. It tells you how well you export Nitrate
4) Heavy in/Heavy out methods is all about adding lots of nitrogen but removing the nitrate
5) Ammonia can be added directly or with more fish/feeding. Ammonia is not the killer substance it's made to be (in a cycled tank that is). Bigger fish excrete more ammonia
6) I don't believe 0 nitrate cause Cyanos. I don't believe 0 PO4 causes Dinos (as it's quite hard to get to real 0 in a well stocked reef tank. The dino's probably consumed it by the time you see it and test)
7) I also believe algae will take hold of every surface in the tank if you have light/nutrients and there's no predator. Look at the ocean. Thousands of tangs need something to eat. I'd be concerned if you have an algae free tank with no algae eating fish. Getting coraline algae or bacterial mulm and other things can help keeping some surfaces free. I think a lot of problems in reef tanks is created by the owner seeing some algae in the back/far corner where fish can't get to and decide to do something drastic.
8) I believe there's a difference in nitrogen/phosphorus in body mass vs water column
9) With heavy-in/heavy-out you allow for a lot of ammonia to pass through your system. But you also prevent the nitrate from building up.

I like to run my tank with just detectable nitrate. PO4 has to be present, but tend to keep below 0.1. I prefer fish and heavy in, but it's totally possible to run a very nice SPS tank without fish and dosing. See the ATI youtube channel for examples (in German, need subtitles if not native).

I also don't believe the redfield ratio has any meaning in our reef tanks. Perhaps in bodymass, but not water column

Perhaps a bit controversial, but thats I run my mixed sps/lps tank. And I can tell you colors are excellent at Nitrate 0.2 (but with heavy in)

 

[brandon429]

again in 2024 I'd like to thank this thread's author for showing us that mini cycle's don't happen in reefing, it's been a 30 year misnomer based on the test kits we used to make nomers from lol (api/nh4/nondigital)

I have linked this thread hundreds of times to use in cycle proofing, and the prediction outcome rate is 100% so far.

what you did here was show what happens when we all stack a bunch of rocks right in the middle of a display reef: fast ammonia control happens, and there's not a time it doesn't happen.

 

[brandon429]

**a question for entrants in this thread.


is anyone with a seneye installed and calibrated willing to heavily stir their sandbed and see if ammonia rises from that clouding?

reason why: we never get closure on whether or not sandbeds can store up ammonia for release because people with seneye's are usually unwilling to stir their sandbed into clouding for the test and that makes sense.

but if there's someone with a seneye in place and is willing to test if sand clouding contains free ammonia, we really could use that feedback. test load ammonia in this thread, more than I could imagine a sandbed housing, was resolved in under 15 minutes here.

 

[Lasse]

I have done around 25 measurements of total ammonia in my 8 years old mixed reef (Hanna Marine Master - the marine total ammonia method - see below

At least in my tank - there is no demand for dosing NH3/NH4 - my corals and macro algae are not NH3/NH4 limited.

 

[brandon429]

thank you for posting that Lasse.

 

[brandon429]

what caused your biggest spikes in the data in your opinion

I'm curious to know how fast your resolve rate is when load tested using that testing approach. if you put liquid ammonium chloride into the reef as a test load, how fast is the resolve rate on your test kit for a calculated known safe test load of ammonia

this thread here using seneye shows an alarmingly fast resolve rate for any post-cycle reef tank.

 

[Lasse]

I´m not sure it is a real peak. Look at the error bars. Nearly all test can in reality be around 0.10-0.12, But during that time I have had some reef reconstruction going on.

I do not know exactly how much NH3/NH4 the biological processes produce in my aquarium - these levels is the left over that my nitrification and photosynthesis can´t handle.

However - I know a little how much my nitrification consume during 24 hours. If I stop my DOC to the denitrification - NO3 rise with around 2.5 mg/L a day. It means that at least 0.3 mg/L NH3/NH4 has been produced during this time. If - without any evidence - I postulate that residual denitrification, gas exchange and photosynthesis consume at least the same amount, this means that total NH3/NH4 production in my aquarium is around 0.6 mg/L NH3/NH4 that will be processed during 24 hours - it could be higher or lesser but I have evidence for at least 0.3 mg/L NH3/NH4 production. Below the graph from june last year when my carbon dosing was stopped. NO3 rise with 16 mg/L during 6 days

​

Sincerely Lasse