Does carbon dosing make your glass dirty?

[Dave-T]

I've been carbon dosing with Tropic Marin Elimi-NP for a month or so. I've built my dose up to 4.5ml/day into a 350 gallon system. Seems to help keeping my nutrients in control. But boy, is my glass dirty! Prior to carbon dosing, I had to clean my glass maybe once/week. Now it's every day or two. Is this normal? The other thing I've changed recently is that I'm dosing trace elements (Reef Moonshiners program). So maybe it could be that, but my bet is on the carbon dosing. The glass is getting dirty with brown algae. Looks like diatoms but maybe not...

 

[blaxsun]

I've been carbon dosing with Tropic Marin Elimi-NP for a month or so. I've built my dose up to 4.5 ml into a 350 gallon system. Seems to help keeping my nutrients in control. But boy, is my glass dirty! Prior to carbon dosing, I had to clean my glass maybe once/week. Now it's every day or two. Is this normal? The other thing I've changed recently is that I'm dosing trace elements (Reef Moonshiners program). So maybe it could be that, but my bet is on the carbon dosing. The glass is getting dirty with brown algae. Looks like diatoms but maybe not...

I think so. Whenever I use NOPOX I find that I'm doing a complete scrape about 1-2 days afterwards. The fish love it; me, not so much...

 

[Dave-T]

It seems obvious that that's what's going on, but I thought that the idea of carbon dosing is that bacteria develop in the water column to be exported via the skimmer. If it's promoting growth on the glass (and sand, rocks, ...) then that's not what we want.

 

[Pod_01]

It seems obvious that that's what's going on, but I thought that the idea of carbon dosing is that bacteria develop in the water column to be exported via the skimmer. If it's promoting growth on the glass (and sand, rocks, ...) then that's not what we want.

Partially correct, in general all bacteria will use the carbon source, on rocks, on glass in the water on corals , biofilm etc…
There is no carbon source that targets only water column bacteria.
TM carbon sources are made from long chain polymers and are intended to promote beneficial bacteria like biofilms or the ones found on corals vs. opportunistic bacteria. TM claims that they do not use sugar, vodka or vinegar based carbon sources.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

TM carbon sources are made from long chain polymers and are intended to promote beneficial bacteria like biofilms or the ones found on corals vs. opportunistic bacteria. TM claims that they do not use sugar, vodka or vinegar based carbon sources.

Which is an assertion lacking evidence, and IMO, smacks of a magic bullet that only hurts bad thigns and only helps good things, no matter how you define good and bad,.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The glass is getting dirty with brown algae. Looks like diatoms but maybe not...

Might it be cyano?

 

[Dave-T]

Might it be cyano?

I don’t know but I don’t think so. I don’t let it grow long enough to be able to tell what it is. But I don’t have cyano on my sand or rocks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I don’t know but I don’t think so. I don’t let it grow long enough to be able to tell what it is. But I don’t have cyano on my sand or rocks.

Are you measuring nitrate and phosphate in the water?

it is unlikely for organic carbon dosing to boost diatoms.

 

[fodsod]

I've been using NOPOX for a while and it works great for Nitrate control (some Phosphate also) but I have noticed a film on the glass daily. It looks whiteish and clears off easily with the scrubber but I didn't have it until I started NOPOX.

 

[Dave-T]

Are you measuring nitrate and phosphate in the water?

it is unlikely for organic carbon dosing to boost diatoms.

Yes, and the carbon dosing has had the desired effect. I guess it's bacteria, just looks like diatoms to me.

 

[Pod_01]

Which is an assertion lacking evidence, and IMO, smacks of a magic bullet that only hurts bad thigns and only helps good things, no matter how you define good and bad,.

Randy I kind of see your point.

But part of the forum discussion is to discuss possible explanations for what some of us observe. Nothing in my statement is made up, I might have the wrong chemical or biological understanding.

I used NOPOX, vinegar (short chain polymers) and I used lets refer to them the German dosing options (magic bullet) offered on the market by FM and TM that use long chain polymers.

My experience with short chain polymers resulted in bacteria bloom, sludge buildup etc… and problems later on when the biofilm collapses like cyno and algae problems I suspect due to excess nutrients (PO4) being released on substrate and rock. Maybe just bad luck.

On the other hand I had no issues when I use the so called long chain polymers (what you refer to as the magic bullet) . No bloom yet, no sludge and no cyno from it yet. Also corals look 100% better vs. before. Maybe issues will show up later, but so far none. Maybe the better results are due to better instructions on how to use the product.

I am not biologist nor am I chemist. Since I made the observation I tried to look up the explanation on R2R but there is very little on the subject (short chain vs long chain carbon dosing products). Next I did search on what the two companies state and and the explanation that is provided by TM sounds reasonable.
My understanding at this point is that short chain polymers can be consumed by any bacteria (opportunistic or not). On the other hand long chain polymers takes longer to break down and different type of bacteria consume them, since they don’t create observable issues for me let’s call them beneficial.

I am open to other explanations. In the end reefing is a hobby for me so I am not attached to any particular explanation, I honestly don’t need the stress. I only comment on what I tried and what I observed so I am quite sure it is correct but it might not be repeatable for others.

I am still chewing on the PO4 (different PO4) and Across discussion. Lot of information there.

Thank you for your patience Randy.

 

[GT3000XX]

I've been using NOPOX for a while and it works great for Nitrate control (some Phosphate also) but I have noticed a film on the glass daily. It looks whiteish and clears off easily with the scrubber but I didn't have it until I started NOPOX.

I have the exact same whiteish film on my glass and it also started with NOPOX. I can’t go more than 2 days without wiping it off. Not a big deal considering the benefits. It just makes the aquarium look hazy before it is wiped off.

 

[Coolcasino]

I have used NoPox and TM Elimi NP and TM Bacto balance. I have observed the same film on the glass with all 3. I need to clean my glass every 4 days. My return and circulation pumps also needed more frequent cleaning. They would flow and pump less. They appeared clean but there was a noticeable film inside of them. Once cleaned they were back to pumping and flowing normally.

 

[fodsod]

My return and circulation pumps also needed more frequent cleaning. They would flow and pump less. They appeared clean but there was a noticeable film inside of them. Once cleaned they were back to pumping and flowing normally.

I just cleaned my gyres this past weekend because they seemed like they weren't pushing as much water as they should. Neither gyre looked bad but it sounds like it was the same issue you are describing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Randy I kind of see your point.

But part of the forum discussion is to discuss possible explanations for what some of us observe. Nothing in my statement is made up, I might have the wrong chemical or biological understanding.

I used NOPOX, vinegar (short chain polymers) and I used lets refer to them the German dosing options (magic bullet) offered on the market by FM and TM that use long chain polymers.

My experience with short chain polymers resulted in bacteria bloom, sludge buildup etc… and problems later on when the biofilm collapses like cyno and algae problems I suspect due to excess nutrients (PO4) being released on substrate and rock. Maybe just bad luck.

On the other hand I had no issues when I use the so called long chain polymers (what you refer to as the magic bullet) . No bloom yet, no sludge and no cyno from it yet. Also corals look 100% better vs. before. Maybe issues will show up later, but so far none. Maybe the better results are due to better instructions on how to use the product.

I am not biologist nor am I chemist. Since I made the observation I tried to look up the explanation on R2R but there is very little on the subject (short chain vs long chain carbon dosing products). Next I did search on what the two companies state and and the explanation that is provided by TM sounds reasonable.
My understanding at this point is that short chain polymers can be consumed by any bacteria (opportunistic or not). On the other hand long chain polymers takes longer to break down and different type of bacteria consume them, since they don’t create observable issues for me let’s call them beneficial.

I am open to other explanations. In the end reefing is a hobby for me so I am not attached to any particular explanation, I honestly don’t need the stress. I only comment on what I tried and what I observed so I am quite sure it is correct but it might not be repeatable for others.

I am still chewing on the PO4 (different PO4) and Across discussion. Lot of information there.

Thank you for your patience Randy.

Just to be clear, neither NOPOX nor vinegar contain any sort of polymer.

I’m not saying there is anything wrong with the polymer TM uses, but they do not provide any evidence it is better.

Acetate in vinegar can be used by corals, sponges, and possibly most or all organisms in a reef tank.

Other organics, polymer or not, may have a smaller subset of organisms that can use it.

That might be good if you get problem bacteria using the acetate, but that depends on what organisms are in any given tank.

Direct consumption of organics by corals and sponges may also be beneficial in some scenarios.

 

[Pod_01]

Just to be clear, neither NOPOX nor vinegar contain any sort of polymer.

Hmmm…. Now I need to chew on this .
So can we call them monomer?

I should have paid lot more attention during chemistry class. But who knew I get into reefing and that reefing is chemistry and biology .

They told me follow these recipes, use these test kits and add these potions and all will be good .

 

[vetteguy53081]

I've been carbon dosing with Tropic Marin Elimi-NP for a month or so. I've built my dose up to 4.5ml/day into a 350 gallon system. Seems to help keeping my nutrients in control. But boy, is my glass dirty! Prior to carbon dosing, I had to clean my glass maybe once/week. Now it's every day or two. Is this normal? The other thing I've changed recently is that I'm dosing trace elements (Reef Moonshiners program). So maybe it could be that, but my bet is on the carbon dosing. The glass is getting dirty with brown algae. Looks like diatoms but maybe not...

I dont have this issue but clean glass more due to added light adjustment and longer periods of daylight. May be coincidence but likely nitrates as just mentioned by Randy opposed to bacterial

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hmmm…. Now I need to chew on this .
So can we call them monomer?

No, they are also not monomers in the sense scientists use that word. Monomers are typically molecules that can be linked together to form a polymer. None of the NOPOX ingredients can do that. They are just called small molecules.