Now for the fun stuff. First test ph. Second find density. Third find boiling point(good way not with thermometer based on feel). Fourth heat to dryness. Fifth heat past dryness to near decomposition. Sixth flame test observed with the iconic color of sodium flame. Seventh heat to decomposition. Some of this may be left out or lost in translation. I will mention what I observed along the way. Crystal clear solution with ph 6 acidic "proprietary" salts listed as a mixture of bisulfites, and sulfonates. (for me that was the give away) Density 1.2588 g/mL average. Boiling point very low I could touch the metal briefly it was around 200 degrees F. Heat to dryness no smell. Heating past this gives you some more clues.
This is a fun read, and you did a lot to actually try to say what could be in this product that isn't Prime. Why not just do this on Prime if that's what you want to talk about?
Also, I'm super impressed by your nose and nerve-endings. I have no such calibrated fingers or nose to determine boiling point by feel (!) or identify compounds by smelling their heated products.
Firstly they showed test that it showed no nitrite. Why? Sodium bisulfite will react with nitrite making nitrate. This will not read on that test kit as shown there.
I'm sure there are a
lot of compounds that could break an API ammonia, and Red Sea NO3 / NO2 test. Prime contains a chemical that does.
Secondly you see them suggest it is a thiolsulfate salt. Well its not even really dilute solutions have a tint of yellow color.
Thiosulfate also broke the API ammonia and Red sea NO2/3 test, and is also a strong reducer like Prime. I don't claim to know what is or isn't in Prime, and I don't think I said I did. We're mostly just looking at chemical effect - not really trying to say what it is or isn't.
But if you want to, check out the following
This
person says...
"One set of “detoxifying” products is Seachem Prime and Seachem Safe. These are sodium dithionite. Lab tests confirm these products are pure sodium dithionite and nothing else. Sodium dithionite removes chlorine because it is a reducing agent and chlorine gas is a strong oxidizing agent.
In water sodium dithionite decomposes to sodium thiosulfate and Sulfurous acid. The sodium thiosulfate and the sulfurous acid then reduce the chlorine in the water:..."
I don't know if any of your tests would've demonstrate that Prime is or isn't dithionite (if you had done them on Prime).
Also, It seems you are just wrong about the lack of yellow as a proof of absence for anything related to thiosulfate.
below is straight sodium thiosulfate (left: crystals , right: dissolved - crystal clear)
Seems like it's totally possible to make a solution with stuff very similar to thiosulfate that is crystal clear.
Thirdly you see them test with seneye and test strips. They claim no drop in bound measurable free ammonia. Why? The seneye, and strips are still picking up the ammonia molecule. I challenge them to test with another source of bound ammonia. Like maybe trimethylamine solution, urea salts, or amino acids. A lot of those can trick tests. I would bet it would still pick up free ammonia.
It sounds like you claiming that these color changing films are reacting to ammonium, NH4??
If so,
@Dan_P has shared data with me that took the same amount of total ammonia and showed the seneye measures different levels of NH3 as you move the pH up/down very much as expected. Maybe he'll post it here to illustrate.
Also, all the papers I've seen on colorimetric ammonia sensing films show they are pretty darn specific to NH3. Have you seen a reference or demonstration otherwise?
I do love the idea of challenging these films with amino acids or urea - you should totally do it and demonstrate if the seachem disks misread a significant part of amino acids or urea etc as NH3.
Nor did they ever test ph of solution they were testing. Likely the ph if they tested was not much more or less than seawater they started with making ammonium the dominant species anyway.
This is also untrue. We accounted for pH explicitly.
In the amphipod test, for instance all pH samples were held to 8.5-8.6.
Also, did you try adding normal sized doses of Prime to saltwater? We found it moves the pH barely at all. Did you see otherwise?
I do believe it does measure ammonium but conversions need to be applied. I forget where I saw this for reference. Ammonium would still get bound.
Would love to see this. Like I said, it's a different story than the papers Dan and I ran across on these color changing ammonia sensing films.
Now lets go back to prime. In my opinion it is toxic to inverts, as well as fish really not to the point of death if you keep it reasonable, and don't just count on it. The way it works is that it binds the ammonia/ammonium compound, making them get into the fish at a much slower rate. This is why you see test kits going up, and up over time. As well as it being harder to be biodegraded by bacteria because it is a more strongly bound and bigger compound than their used to. Why is it toxic to inverts? Simply this at whatever rate it gets absorbed into their bodies is unknown, but you can see in their thread it does kill them. It is because of one of the ingredients! Vinylsulfonic acid complexes get into their blood stream faster.
not 100% sure what you are getting at, but I
think you are trying to make an argument that in the amphipod test in post 44, it was Prime that killed the pods, and not ammonia..... even though both samples with ammonia killed the pods with or without prime, and another sample without ammonia that DID have the same anount of prime left the pods totally unaffected - and all samples were held at the same pH.
4 treatments - 100mL bottles each with amphipods. Water mixed, dosed, and pH adjusted in separate 500mL containers, then exchanged into the amphipod bottles.
bottle 1
Tank water adjusted to pH 8.5-8.6
bottle 2
Tank water spiked with ammonia drops, adjusted to pH 8.5-8.6
bottle 3
Tank water spiked with ammonia drops and Prime in recommended amounts, adjusted to pH 8.5-8.6
bottle 4
Tank water with Prime only, same amount as bottle 3, adjusted to pH 8.5-8.6
If I misunderstood you on anything, let me know.
It was interesting, but I don't think I see the holes you do.
