Does this look like a real RR Avengers?
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Masgatigata
Active Member
He contacted me today. Said he is gonna make it right. I'll post back once he does. He seems heartfelt so we will see.
hybridazn
Acro killer.....
Thanks! I guess a positive that came out of that piece is that I am the original farmer of that piece
buddythelion
2500 Club Member
Oh ho ho, and I almost got my replacement piece from you couple months ago before I decided to cut back on the stick game. Which is funny because now I'm back in it. LOL
hybridazn
Acro killer.....
I told you that you would be back hahahaha
trueblackpercula
Active Member
This is a very good point and I have bought pieces for big money because of lineage. But what I have learned in the pet few yours that this has turned into a giant cash cow for sellers. For this reason I have decided to by maricultured pieces that have no names and look outstanding. I do no the person your are talking about and in his defense he has never claimed to sell me anything other then straight up acros that are dripping in color for rediculios prices. They are so cheap that I have no need to but online or from stores again. I don't know what happened to the original poster of this thread but I do have a question or two.
1) there is no possable way that any Sps is unique they all come from the same oceans around the world.
2) how does one prove linage????? This is impossable unless you physically see the box imported to Reefraft and they cut you are frag on th spot. Now even if that happens it's probally an acro the was either maricultured or wild collected and that still does not make it rare. Please keep in minds that when purchasing Sps unless you have the same exact lighting as the seller chances are your prized $400 frag will never look like the pictures posted by the seller.
I have seen countless Sps nuts always posting they bought this and when they receive the frag the seller tells them the reason it doesn't look the same is because it's stressed out from shipping. This is total crap and it's all about money, please but what you like and what you can see In person and you will have less disappointment.
Quick story I have purchased three frags of original true Oregon tort from three different vendors and they all were different shades of blue and different coralites structures. I then asked for linage again only to find out that they got there pieces from different sources all claiming to be the real deal. This was good enough for me at the time until someone that had nothing to do with the hobby as me " how could the prove that?" And Bam it hit me, there is no possable way that anyone can prove linage this way. Again unless your are present when the shipment comes in and you purchase it directly from the source it's impossable to prove.
This is just my experiancess and I hope anyone that is in the hobby keeps it honest as I for one have learned that all Sps come from the a me place and are only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
In closing I was on a mission for rr Jawdroper when I first seen the pictures. After several peoe started posting there pictures it looked nothing like the original picture posted. At that point I new that Sps stands for super photo shopped and it was a new way for sellers to try and sell stuff for crazy money by givining it fancy names.
Please do t take my post the wrong way but we do this stuff to our selves but allowing vendors or even scammers to take advantage. I hope everyone gets the results your are looking for and in the end become happy with your purchases. Mom always told me if it's to good to be true then it probally is.
Michael
WesF
Well-Known Member
In the case of this seller that I know about, it wasn't just selling named corals claiming lineage. He took preorders before he traveled down. In some cases the frags were tiny, less than 1/2", cut on both ends, and in rough shape. Many did not live long.
It almost seemed like he took payment for more frags than he could supply so he just cut some frags in half. Who sells an acro cut at both ends?
In regards to how to prove lineage. For the really expensive RR stuff it's pretty easy because most RR corals have not been in circulation long. There are usually only a couple degrees of separation and the vendors are usually happy to give you the lineage and you can confirm with RR.
The stuff that has been around a long time is more difficult to trace but they are usually priced MUCH lower so it's not as big of a deal to trace back the lineage. Plus it's pretty easy to spot a fake. I can usually just look at an acro and tell you if it is aquacultured or a wild cut.
It almost seemed like he took payment for more frags than he could supply so he just cut some frags in half. Who sells an acro cut at both ends?
In regards to how to prove lineage. For the really expensive RR stuff it's pretty easy because most RR corals have not been in circulation long. There are usually only a couple degrees of separation and the vendors are usually happy to give you the lineage and you can confirm with RR.
The stuff that has been around a long time is more difficult to trace but they are usually priced MUCH lower so it's not as big of a deal to trace back the lineage. Plus it's pretty easy to spot a fake. I can usually just look at an acro and tell you if it is aquacultured or a wild cut.
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trueblackpercula
Active Member
Not to debate but how can you spot a fake? Also again unless you get your frag directly from reefraft there is no way to prove lineage. Now as for spotting a fake can you please elaborate more on this technic? Now as for maricultured pieces or wild pieces reefraft get most of there stock maricultured and places a fancy name on them to charge crazy prices. Don't believe me show up when they get the shipments in. I was told this by a reliable source that has been there in person.
WesF
Well-Known Member
Yeah I know that's why I don't really jump on the reef raft bandwagon. But if you give me the Pepsi challenge I can easy pick out the frags cut from wild maricultured vs an aquacultured frag that is generations removed from captivity.
Bigmatt
Community Member
I have gotten numerous colonies and frags from the person that's being defamed in this thread. gorgeous shortcake colonies, aussie colonies, maricultured colonies and frags. Got a rr wolverine also from him, looks exactly like the rr wolverine from inland corals that I have sitting right next to it in my frag tank. Never had ant issues with the corals, all looked better than the photos provided. I don't pay good money for ridiculous names, I paid good money and got great corals from him. and ill be happy to post pics in this thread of past acros and the next shipment I get from him. Rob, would you ever replace a $400.00 frag order if they were shipped poorly and all arrived dead/pealing?
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jackson6745
Valuable Member
Michael, while I agree with you on certain points, especially the photoshop SPS scams, there are certain corals with proven lineage that look amazing and command a high price. I have mariculture, aquaculture, and wild in my tank. It's all about the appearance of the coral for me, I don't limit myself to one type. I'm not trying to get rich selling frags. Bottom line is this coral was sold as an avenger and it is not an avenger. That is dishonest and destroys and credibility that the seller may have had in my eyes. MANY others have had similar experiences.
trueblackpercula
Active Member
Well I don't know anything about that, I was only describing what has been going on in the hobby for the past three years and to be honest it has gotten way out of control. Sorry if you got something that was not what you thought it was but again how does one really prove if it's real of not. Let's say I purchased jawdropper and sold it on Reefcentral to another person. They in returned sold it to another person and so on. How does one prove it can from me? Also how about if I never really got it from reefraft? Again it's almost impossable for anyone to prove any type of linage unless you personally get it straight from the source. Just saying not debating. I am still on a quest for the real deal Oregon tort and I know deep down inside it's going to be very hard to do. By the way can you post a picture of the piece you are talking about would love to see it.
Michael
trueblackpercula
Active Member
Also by the way I seen the invoice that proves he bought it directly from reefraft. I can send you screen shots if you like as I asked for lineage on his jawdropper and I can say it's the real deal, but again I didn't see it purchased in person so at some point you have to ask yourself do you trust the person or not. In this case he's been very honest and does have the goods. I would buy again and agai. With out hesitation.
mnat
Valuable Member
Lol. The jawdropper he is selling is a picture from a maricultured piece he was selling. You did not buy the real jawdropper from him, you bough a mark piece and I have his pictures to prove it.
WesF
Well-Known Member
Found the old thread...
http://www.carolinafishtalk.com/forum/rasoc/55666-march-meeting-high-end-sps-frags.html
http://www.carolinafishtalk.com/forum/rasoc/55666-march-meeting-high-end-sps-frags.html
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jackson6745
Valuable Member
There are pics on the first page of this thread. In a VERY literal sense, yes we may never know 100% that any coral we get is legit. Appearance is obviously a factor. More important than color, is growth formation. Local lineage is huge. Whatever, that's not the issue. I don't need to see the invoice for the jaw dropper since I'm not the one buying it. You should forward that invoice to RR to have them confirm its validity. I'm not going to go back an forth on this matter.
BTW I have a real oregon tort that came from MGNY, JBNY, Calireef, and the same one that was all over the LIRA organization. This is a coral that I have seen grown in many tanks including my previous tanks over the last 10 years. I know 100% that it's real.
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