Does this look like vibrio?

[Angelwolf21203]

I'm not sure what's going on with my seahorse, but he turned up with this white area on his head this am! I don't think it's an injury, but it is possible that someone in the tank pecked him. His eyes seem fine, and he looked normal yesterday. Does this look like vibrio?

 

[Mjrenz]

@ngoodermuth @HotRocks @4FordFamily, any of you know anything about seahorses?

 

[Mjrenz]

And welcome to the forum!

 

[jsvand5]

Not sure on vibro. I’ve never dealt with it but it looks extremely thin. How long have you had it? What is it feeding on, how often are you feeding, what temp is it being kept at? Is it captive bred?

 

[4FordFamily]

I’m not very familiar with seahorses, @SeahorseKeeper may be able to assist further if she is around.

 

[4FordFamily]

I believe I see spots all over the fish that could be ich as well.. :/

 

[SeahorseKeeper]

Yes, that looks like vibrio or similar bacterial infection. I would setup a quarantine tank ASAP and treat the seahorse. The tank needs to be around 68-72 degrees.

 

[Angelwolf21203]

My temp is at 78. That's how both of them looked, as far as being skinny and the small white dots on them when I got them. They came from liveaquaria.com. They are both captive bred Kuda Seahorses. I'm fighting with high phosphate and algae blooms right now. Waiting for phos-zorb to come via FedEx. Should be here tomorrow. I feed mysis and brine shrimp and they both eat very well, twice daily. I do know that part of my high phosphate problem was coming from the frozen foods. Had no problems before I started getting it for the ponies. I did a 30% water change 1 week ago, and 7 days later, the brown algae took over again. Phosphate came down some, but not much. But, during that week, I also wasn't rinsing the food. I was just letting it melt in the aquarium. Lesson learned. Furan 2 is the recommended treatment, right?

 

[Angelwolf21203]

By the way, thanks for the welcome. I'm not new to fish keeping, or marine fish. My experience with corals and seahorses is still pretty novice, though.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Yes, that looks like vibrio or similar bacterial infection. I would setup a quarantine tank ASAP and treat the seahorse. The tank needs to be around 68-72 degrees.

Just for my own educational value... is there a specific antibiotic/dosing schedule typically used on seahorses. Or a good thread to read?

 

[jsvand5]

My temp is at 78. That's how both of them looked, as far as being skinny and the small white dots on them when I got them. They came from liveaquaria.com. They are both captive bred Kuda Seahorses. I'm fighting with high phosphate and algae blooms right now. Waiting for phos-zorb to come via FedEx. Should be here tomorrow. I feed mysis and brine shrimp and they both eat very well, twice daily. I do know that part of my high phosphate problem was coming from the frozen foods. Had no problems before I started getting it for the ponies. I did a 30% water change 1 week ago, and 7 days later, the brown algae took over again. Phosphate came down some, but not much. But, during that week, I also wasn't rinsing the food. I was just letting it melt in the aquarium. Lesson learned. Furan 2 is the recommended treatment, right?

You are going to need to get a chiller if you want to have a chance with them. 78 degrees is not going to work longterm.

In the future I’d definitely recommend getting horses from seahorsesource.com over liveaquaria. You are guaranteed to get healthy horses from them.

For me at least, algae problems were unavoidable in my seahorse tanks. They have to eat so often and are so messy while eating there isn’t much you can do. Setting up a feeding station helps some to avoid a lot of uneaten mysis leftover in the tank.

 

[Angelwolf21203]

You are going to need to get a chiller if you want to have a chance with them. 78 degrees is not going to work longterm.

In the future I’d definitely recommend getting horses from seahorsesource.com over liveaquaria. You are guaranteed to get healthy horses from them.

For me at least, algae problems were unavoidable in my seahorse tanks. They have to eat so often and are so messy while eating there isn’t much you can do. Setting up a feeding station helps some to avoid a lot of uneaten mysis leftover in the tank.

I have a feeding station, but my other fish learned about it before the seahorses did and they just steal the food and make a mess anyway.

 

[rayjay]

Yes, it does have the appearance of a bacterial infection and needs to be removed to a hospital tank immediately for treatment with Furan II and Tri-sulpha used as directed on the package for the full duration which can be repeated if needed. (Spots on the fish are often just the seahorse's normal colouration and even that can change depending on how it see's it's own vulnerability to predation)
You haven't provided much in the way of information to help you with as far as the display tank goes, but from what you HAVE mentioned, it appears you have corals and other fish in there which in themselves are possible problems for seahorses. Many corals are NOT suitable for seahorse tanks, some because they can sting the seahorses and lead to infections but others because they require higher temperatures than what we need to keep seahorse tanks at BECAUSE of their affinity to bacterial infections.
As for other fish tankmates, as you have seen, they can outcompeat the seahorses for food and can also stress the seahorses because of their faster motion or even aggression. Also, seahorses often fall victim to pathogens they haven't been exposed to while growing up and so placing them in with fish that haven't been raised in the same exposures does mean that the seahorses are often exposed to such pathogens that they can't easily resist.
Bacterial infections occur when seahorse resistance is low for whatever reason, and/or coupled with nasty bacterial expansion which can be many species of vibrio or other bacteria.
The bacterial expansion occurs exponentially with each rising degree and is especially bad above 74°F which is why the recommended temperature for most seahorses tanks ranges from 68-74°F. (Lower for some like abs)
Also, as there are NO TEST KITS AVAILABLE to the hobbyist to advise us as to when the water quality is degrading to the point bacterial growth is getting out of hand (and no, testing phosphates or even any other normally tested elements for salt water tanks will suffice) we must be pro-active and NOT re-active in our husbandry protocols, unfortunately the limits which have to be determined by trial and error as every system is different.
Suffice to say that a seahorse tank maintained like a reef tank will be lacking in sufficient maintenance and water changes to give the best chances of success in keeping seahorses.
Dissolved organics, which is a big part of the water quality, can be greatly reduced by adding a severely oversized skimmer.
Mechanical filter pads/traps need to be cleaned out every 3-4 days, especially not longer than 7 days as these provide food AND bedding for the nasties.
Larger and more frequent water changes are also a big aid in water quality control. Size and frequency will vary with each setup but generally speaking you will need to do more than you would for a reef tank.
As a side note, seahorses, like some other marine fish (surgeon fish) don't have stomachs and as such are day long feeders. As they can only eat so much at a time, twice a day feeding is not always sufficient and preferences would be at least 3 times and better yet 4 times a day.
When you feed more often, you can feed a LITTLE bit less each time but overall they get much more benefit by the staggered feedings and will actually eat more food in total.
Another point is that getting seahorses from the best sources definitely is the best way to go, but recognize that even the best livestock is STILL going to need the RIGHT conditions to give them the best chances of long term viability.

 

[Angelwolf21203]

Yes, it does have the appearance of a bacterial infection and needs to be removed to a hospital tank immediately for treatment with Furan II and Tri-sulpha used as directed on the package for the full duration which can be repeated if needed. (Spots on the fish are often just the seahorse's normal colouration and even that can change depending on how it see's it's own vulnerability to predation)
You haven't provided much in the way of information to help you with as far as the display tank goes, but from what you HAVE mentioned, it appears you have corals and other fish in there which in themselves are possible problems for seahorses. Many corals are NOT suitable for seahorse tanks, some because they can sting the seahorses and lead to infections but others because they require higher temperatures than what we need to keep seahorse tanks at BECAUSE of their affinity to bacterial infections.
As for other fish tankmates, as you have seen, they can outcompeat the seahorses for food and can also stress the seahorses because of their faster motion or even aggression. Also, seahorses often fall victim to pathogens they haven't been exposed to while growing up and so placing them in with fish that haven't been raised in the same exposures does mean that the seahorses are often exposed to such pathogens that they can't easily resist.
Bacterial infections occur when seahorse resistance is low for whatever reason, and/or coupled with nasty bacterial expansion which can be many species of vibrio or other bacteria.
The bacterial expansion occurs exponentially with each rising degree and is especially bad above 74°F which is why the recommended temperature for most seahorses tanks ranges from 68-74°F. (Lower for some like abs)
Also, as there are NO TEST KITS AVAILABLE to the hobbyist to advise us as to when the water quality is degrading to the point bacterial growth is getting out of hand (and no, testing phosphates or even any other normally tested elements for salt water tanks will suffice) we must be pro-active and NOT re-active in our husbandry protocols, unfortunately the limits which have to be determined by trial and error as every system is different.
Suffice to say that a seahorse tank maintained like a reef tank will be lacking in sufficient maintenance and water changes to give the best chances of success in keeping seahorses.
Dissolved organics, which is a big part of the water quality, can be greatly reduced by adding a severely oversized skimmer.
Mechanical filter pads/traps need to be cleaned out every 3-4 days, especially not longer than 7 days as these provide food AND bedding for the nasties.
Larger and more frequent water changes are also a big aid in water quality control. Size and frequency will vary with each setup but generally speaking you will need to do more than you would for a reef tank.
As a side note, seahorses, like some other marine fish (surgeon fish) don't have stomachs and as such are day long feeders. As they can only eat so much at a time, twice a day feeding is not always sufficient and preferences would be at least 3 times and better yet 4 times a day.
When you feed more often, you can feed a LITTLE bit less each time but overall they get much more benefit by the staggered feedings and will actually eat more food in total.
Another point is that getting seahorses from the best sources definitely is the best way to go, but recognize that even the best livestock is STILL going to need the RIGHT conditions to give them the best chances of long term viability.

Thank you for all of the information. The corals I have are just a colt coral, some button polyps, and 2 bipinnate sea fans. They are all reportedly safe for seahorses. I literally have only 3 fish in the aquarium, none of which seem to bother the horses. And the reason I mentioned the phosphate readings was because of the algae issue, which I feel is contributing to the issues. As far as feeding more frequently, that's going to be difficult, because I have to work, and they don't recognize flake or pellet food as being a food source. So an auto-feeder wouldn't help, either. I am sure that they get enough to graze on, because you can actually visually see the copepods all over my substrate, and they will pick them off all day long.

 

[rayjay]

It's not what YOU perceive the 3 fish to be with respect to the seahorses, it's what THEY perceive things to be. Also, you already mentioned that they get to the food before the seahorses actually get their fill.
The algae issue are NOT the problem causing this bacterial infection if that is what it is, but, the algae issue MAY be worsened by seahorse eating habits. When seahorses snick their food they masticate it as it passes to their digestive tract but in so doing, they expel minute particulate matter into the water column, further degrading the water quality and that in turn leads to more nutrients for the algae, but also adds to the nutrients feeding the nasty bacteria.
You still haven't mentioned anything like tank size, specifically what fish, what type of filtration and other water quality equipment you have, and, what your husbandry and water change policies are.
As for feeding, I can recommend that you feed at least once before going to work, another time as soon as you get home, and then a third time 3-4 hours later before going to bed.

 

[jsvand5]

I have a feeding station, but my other fish learned about it before the seahorses did and they just steal the food and make a mess anyway.

Having other fish with the seahorses is another issue that can effect your longterm success.

 

[Angelwolf21203]

It's not what YOU perceive the 3 fish to be with respect to the seahorses, it's what THEY perceive things to be. I know that.
Also, you already mentioned that they get to the food before the seahorses actually get their fill. I was referring to when I use the feeding station. When I pour the food into the water column, it spreads out and there is plenty to go around. I watch them feed at every feeding. They do get their fill.
The algae issue are NOT the problem causing this bacterial infection if that is what it is, but, the algae issue MAY be worsened by seahorse eating habits. When seahorses snick their food they masticate it as it passes to their digestive tract but in so doing, they expel minute particulate matter into the water column, further degrading the water quality and that in turn leads to more nutrients for the algae, but also adds to the nutrients feeding the nasty bacteria.
You still haven't mentioned anything like tank size 90 gallons, specifically what fish 1 maroon clown who hides in a cave, 1 juvenile emperor angel, and 1 blue headed wrasse, what type of filtration and other water quality equipment you have a sump system with a filter bag activated carbon, Purigen, rock rubble, and a foam filter. When I check my parameters, I use the API dip sticks as well as their Reef Master kit. My most recent readings on 5/18 were pH 8.5, NO2 0, NO3 20ppm, Ca2 420ppm KH 358ppm, , and, what your husbandry and water change policies are. About every 2 months I do a 30-50% water change with a thorough substrate vacuuming, or when Nitrates get too high. I use a mag float to scrape the algae from the glass 3+ times a week.
As for feeding, I can recommend that you feed at least once before going to work, another time as soon as you get home, and then a third time 3-4 hours later before going to bed I will have to lengthen the time that the lights are on, but that can be done. However wouldn't that contribute to the overall water quality problems by adding more waste and more algae in the tank. I don't claim to be an expert in reef keeping, or anything else, however I'm no novice either. My tank has been established for 5+ years. And before that, I have had tanks both FOWLR and fresh water for about 10 years. While I have plenty of room to learn, please know that I am not just some newbie. I appreciate everyone's help, and I am open to any and all suggestions.

 

[rayjay]

Wow, those three fish would NEVER be found in any of my seahorse tanks.
Actually, those readings you provided do NOT do anything to tell you about water quality with respect to seahorse problems with bacterial infections. As I mentioned, there ARE no test kits available to the hobbyists that can do so. For me, it's been many years since I even bothered to check anything other than really the specific gravity of my tanks.
Using my 17 plus years of experience keeping and breeding 7 species of seahorses, I would have to say that based on what you've just mentioned about water changes, it's a good bet that the husbandry/water change protocol is responsible for the bacterial infection.
It's good, IMO, that you take the time to vacuum the substrate, but many successful long term seahorse keepers would advise you that your water changes are insufficient and will allow for a gradual buildup of organics that fuel the nasty bacteria.
Like you, I wasn't a novice to salt water aquaria when I finally started into seahorses in 2002, having been into reef tanks and fish only tanks for about a decade before, with over 1,000g of salt water tanks in my basement.
Unfortunately, I had to learn the hard way that what I knew about salt water reefing was NOT going to cut the mustard so to speak, in keeping seahorses as their requirements are sooo different. Back then there wasn't a lot of quality information available to the hobbyist and much of what WAS available has since proved to be misleading or just plain wrong. It cost the lives of many seahorses until such time that my experiences coupled with those of others on seahorse.org, and with the help of Dan Underwood of seahorsesource.com, I finally got to the point I was able to determine just how much I had to do to have a better chance of success in the hobby.
Dan Underwood today would tell you that he can usually explain to a NEW TO SALTWATER person just how to be a successful in keeping seahorses than he would by talking with someone who already has been in the saltwater hobby in keeping a reef or fish only.
The best thing I could advise you to do would be to set up a species only seahorse tank for your seahorses (but still treat the affected one in hospital tank until healed)
The very basic recommendation would be 30g for each pair of standard sized seahorses and an extra 25-30g for each additional pair. Temperature should be between 68° and 74°F, overall water flow at least 10X while many of us are over 20X. (this helps to keep crap in suspension a bit longer to enable mechanical filtration to trap) An overrated protein skimmer will most definitely help in water quality.
I've not checked the stickies on this forum but I'd bet there are plenty for you to read and see what others have found works best for them.

 

[Angelwolf21203]

Wow, those three fish would NEVER be found in any of my seahorse tanks.
Actually, those readings you provided do NOT do anything to tell you about water quality with respect to seahorse problems with bacterial infections. As I mentioned, there ARE no test kits available to the hobbyists that can do so. For me, it's been many years since I even bothered to check anything other than really the specific gravity of my tanks.
Using my 17 plus years of experience keeping and breeding 7 species of seahorses, I would have to say that based on what you've just mentioned about water changes, it's a good bet that the husbandry/water change protocol is responsible for the bacterial infection.
It's good, IMO, that you take the time to vacuum the substrate, but many successful long term seahorse keepers would advise you that your water changes are insufficient and will allow for a gradual buildup of organics that fuel the nasty bacteria.
Like you, I wasn't a novice to salt water aquaria when I finally started into seahorses in 2002, having been into reef tanks and fish only tanks for about a decade before, with over 1,000g of salt water tanks in my basement.
Unfortunately, I had to learn the hard way that what I knew about salt water reefing was NOT going to cut the mustard so to speak, in keeping seahorses as their requirements are sooo different. Back then there wasn't a lot of quality information available to the hobbyist and much of what WAS available has since proved to be misleading or just plain wrong. It cost the lives of many seahorses until such time that my experiences coupled with those of others on seahorse.org, and with the help of Dan Underwood of seahorsesource.com, I finally got to the point I was able to determine just how much I had to do to have a better chance of success in the hobby.
Dan Underwood today would tell you that he can usually explain to a NEW TO SALTWATER person just how to be a successful in keeping seahorses than he would by talking with someone who already has been in the saltwater hobby in keeping a reef or fish only.
The best thing I could advise you to do would be to set up a species only seahorse tank for your seahorses (but still treat the affected one in hospital tank until healed)
The very basic recommendation would be 30g for each pair of standard sized seahorses and an extra 25-30g for each additional pair. Temperature should be between 68° and 74°F, overall water flow at least 10X while many of us are over 20X. (this helps to keep crap in suspension a bit longer to enable mechanical filtration to trap) An overrated protein skimmer will most definitely help in water quality.
I've not checked the stickies on this forum but I'd bet there are plenty for you to read and see what others have found works best for them.

Thank you for your advice. I will look at the stickies and see what I can learn.