Does vinegar need a skimmer?

LordJoshaeus

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Hi everyone! I was thinking of using vinegar as a carbon source in my NPS coral setup to encourage denitrifying bacteria. However...would I need a skimmer while doing this? I understand that vodka needs a skimmer, but in my research I wasn't clearly able to find whether vinegar dosing also necessitated a skimmer. I would rather not add a skimmer because it would remove many of the small animals my corals will rely on for sustenance. Thank you!
 
Sugar, vodka or vinegar or any carbon source will cause a bacteria bloom that needs to be removed by skimming. Isn't that the reason why you are carbon dosing? To lower nitrate or phosphate levels. If you don't skim alot will be redistributed back to the tank.
 
I would rather not add a skimmer because it would remove many of the small animals my corals will rely on for sustenance.

I don't believe this is true. There are many many very successful tanks that run skimmers and still maintain populations of copepods and other small life. Besides the obvious use of skimmers to remove organic wastes, they also provide a lot of oxygenation to the water.
 
I second @Larry L . If you are worried about pods a skimmer will have a minimal effect on them. I have run skimmers on every tank I have owned and all of them are over run with pods to the point my mandarin pair can't keep up (it doesn't help that they're fat and lazy as they eat any food I put in the tank).
 
Hi everyone! I was thinking of using vinegar as a carbon source in my NPS coral setup to encourage denitrifying bacteria. However...would I need a skimmer while doing this? I understand that vodka needs a skimmer, but in my research I wasn't clearly able to find whether vinegar dosing also necessitated a skimmer. I would rather not add a skimmer because it would remove many of the small animals my corals will rely on for sustenance. Thank you!

The consensus is a skimmer is needed, but that notion was first stated as a “must” when carbon dosing for aquariums was first described. You should be aware that the edict was based on little experience and no measurements. It seems like a reasonable recommendation though.

I have run 2 liter carbon dosing experiments and have seen little oxygen consumption. I cannot speak to CO2 production except to say that the pH is stable. I have more experiments to conduct. I can only wonder at this point whether the skimmer requirement is correct.

What I think everyone is forgetting in this debate is that you will be increasing the carbon dose (vinegar, ethanol, glucose, whatever) gradually until an effect is observed (hence the requirement to check nitrates often). Oxygen consumption, carbon dioxide production, bacterial biomass and bacterial exudates by bacteria will increase slowly. Carbon dosing does not produce bacterial blooms until you get to high doses, I think somewhere above 0.5 mL/gallon. If you are going to dose without a skimmer, be very observant of the condition of your aquarium. If you don’t have math phobia, you can calculate the maximum amount of CO2 produced and oxygen consumed per vinegar dose and prove to yourself the size of the worse case scenario you face for each dose increase.

As for skimmer removal of small creatures, it is a theoretical possibility. I have put skimmate under the microscope, and yes, living protozoa have been harvested. I have occassioning seen pods in the skimmate too, but, it is not teeming with them. I would say that to date, the skimmer has not been identified as a killer of aquarium microscopic wildlife.
 
Thanks! I think I will use a skimmer, but only during the day...at night I will unplug and clean it so it does not suck up the phytoplankton I am going to be feeding to my corals every night.
 
The consensus is a skimmer is needed, but that notion was first stated as a “must” when carbon dosing for aquariums was first described. You should be aware that the edict was based on little experience and no measurements. It seems like a reasonable recommendation though.

I have run 2 liter carbon dosing experiments and have seen little oxygen consumption. I cannot speak to CO2 production except to say that the pH is stable. I have more experiments to conduct. I can only wonder at this point whether the skimmer requirement is correct.

What I think everyone is forgetting in this debate is that you will be increasing the carbon dose (vinegar, ethanol, glucose, whatever) gradually until an effect is observed (hence the requirement to check nitrates often). Oxygen consumption, carbon dioxide production, bacterial biomass and bacterial exudates by bacteria will increase slowly. Carbon dosing does not produce bacterial blooms until you get to high doses, I think somewhere above 0.5 mL/gallon. If you are going to dose without a skimmer, be very observant of the condition of your aquarium. If you don’t have math phobia, you can calculate the maximum amount of CO2 produced and oxygen consumed per vinegar dose and prove to yourself the size of the worse case scenario you face for each dose increase.

As for skimmer removal of small creatures, it is a theoretical possibility. I have put skimmate under the microscope, and yes, living protozoa have been harvested. I have occassioning seen pods in the skimmate too, but, it is not teeming with them. I would say that to date, the skimmer has not been identified as a killer of aquarium microscopic wildlife.

I thought the reason for the skimmer when carbon dosing was to help remove the bacteria that the carbon feeds that help consume the nitrate and phosphate. If the bacteria is left in the tank, it will eventually die and release the nitrates and phosphates back into the water.
 
I thought the reason for the skimmer when carbon dosing was to help remove the bacteria that the carbon feeds that help consume the nitrate and phosphate. If the bacteria is left in the tank, it will eventually die and release the nitrates and phosphates back into the water.

You are right. Removing bacteria and the dissolved organic carbon they produce, and aerating the water are the big three reasons for using a skimmer. All reasonable ideas. I like them. Here are some questions and notions that make me wonder about the absolute necessity of having a skimmer during carbon dosing.

If carbon dosing mainly encourages heterotrophic denitrification, then removing bacteria may not be so important. Most of the nitrate goes to N2. I am running small scale carbon dosing experiments. Measuring the increase in dissolved organic carbon is on my list of things to learn.

How much phosphate is removed by carbon dosing? My impression is that it is not very effective in removing phophate because bacteria don’t need that much.

What if the bacteria are growing on surfaces in biofilms?

How much of the dosed carbon goes to CO2? If most of it does, the carbon dose induced biomass increase (sludge) might not be that important to remove. My small scale experiments seem to indicate very little vinegar goes to nitrate reduction but most to CO2 production. I have a lot to learn yet.
 
Vodka and vinegar will have similar "needs" for a skimmer, but I'm not actually convinced that one is absolutely needed if there are sufficient filter feeders to consume the bacteria. I think a skimmer is a great idea, but maybe not required just because of carbon dosing.
 

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