Don't Let Your Reference Solutions Run Out !!

[Dr. Jim]

WARNING: If your ION DIRECTOR Reference Solutions run out during a test, it can ruin the sensor! I just found this out the hard way! I got an error message showing "bad sensor" and then realized that a Reference Solution was empty. After going back and forth a few times with "Tickets" and trouble-shooting the conclusion was that the tip of the sensor that reads NO3 was damaged.

Warranty does NOT cover replacement sensors if there is damage due to Solutions running out.

GHL was kind enough to replace the original sensor that came with the set that I could not get to work. (It couldn't be determined whose "fault" that was). But they say they can't replace one again (for free).

I know that there are safe-guards where you set the volume and can get a warning but mine was off. Because I read that the solutions should not be exposed to light, I transferred them to amber bottles but it is difficult to see the levels. Also, because of my shelves, I can only fit 5 oz bottles. Apparently, I went thru solutions very quickly! (I only ran about 10 tests so far, but probably wasted a lot with all the "runs" trying to trouble-shoot problems.)

Another thing I learned: I asked if it is OK to run tests every 3-4 days or once a week without fear of damaging the sensor. The answer was: ..."it is hard to say how the sensor will react to the extended testing intervals. It's an option being researched, but will not be made available until we are comfortable with the results we see."

Right before this problem, I was very close to posting that "My ION DIRECTOR has given me very consistent and acceptable readings and I am very pleased with it's performance". This opinion still remains the same; however, I'm just a little disappointed that the sensor can be damaged so easily. It seems that I won't be the only one who will someday make the mistake of letting their Reference Solutions run out! (Well, maybe not. Hopefully it won't happen to anyone else after this warning!)

 

[Ditto]

You can set up the container fluids levels. If you do this when it gets low it stops taking measurements. I set up both the KH and ION to do this. I also set 15Ml less then the container fluid (1000ml I will do it at 985ml) to have some room and dump the content into the next container when it alarms. Did you do this on the ION and it did not work for you?

 

[Dr. Jim]

You can set up the container fluids levels. If you do this when it gets low it stops taking measurements. I set up both the KH and ION to do this. I also set 15Ml less then the container fluid (1000ml I will do it at 985ml) to have some room and dump the content into the next container when it alarms. Did you do this on the ION and it did not work for you?

I know about setting the container fluid levels and made reference to this "safe-guard" in my original post but I didn't get around to doing this because everything was new and I was rearranging my GHL cabinet shelves and playing around with different size bottles trying to find one to fit. I was planning on setting the "fluid levels" once I settled on an arrangement but ran out of fluids first! My bad. Now I'm getting a "yellow bar" (instead of green), whacky readings, and a message saying "replace sensor soon." I think "soon" is "now"! I will have to check with Vinny, but I think he said something to make me believe the "new" sensors are not available at the present time.

Thanks for helping!

**** I got to meet Vinny today at Reefapalooza. Its always nice to meet a celebrity!!

 

[Dr. Jim]

Good news!! This is crazy.... the IOND worked perfectly this morning!! Last night, I "Emptied the cell", then "Prepared the cell", and then ran it this morning. I got a "green bar" and very acceptable results that I am comfortable with:

Ca: 425; Mg: 1311; K: 424; Na: 10,630; NO3: 9

I'll see if it continues to operate correctly. If it does, it might be worth noting that if anybody ever has a problem with error messages or "yellow or red bars", it might be worth "Emptying the Cell" followed by "Preparing the Cell."
The only lingering concern is that when I look at the "mv + data log" I am getting negative values for NO3. Vinny said he doesn't think they should be negative. But when all the other readings appear to be normal, so does the NO3 reading.

This will be great if errors can be remedied this easily. It would be a little disheartening if the sensor is found to be so "delicate" that it would go bad with the slightest of errors (i.e. running a test with air accidently being introduced).

 

[FishyFishFish]

Good news!! This is crazy.... the IOND worked perfectly this morning!! Last night, I "Emptied the cell", then "Prepared the cell", and then ran it this morning. I got a "green bar" and very acceptable results that I am comfortable with:

Ca: 425; Mg: 1311; K: 424; Na: 10,630; NO3: 9

I'll see if it continues to operate correctly. If it does, it might be worth noting that if anybody ever has a problem with error messages or "yellow or red bars", it might be worth "Emptying the Cell" followed by "Preparing the Cell."
The only lingering concern is that when I look at the "mv + data log" I am getting negative values for NO3. Vinny said he doesn't think they should be negative. But when all the other readings appear to be normal, so does the NO3 reading.

This will be great if errors can be remedied this easily. It would be a little disheartening if the sensor is found to be so "delicate" that it would go bad with the slightest of errors (i.e. running a test with air accidently being introduced).

Poor sensor performance messages have been shown in the past to be caused by air in the system. I am not sure if that was the reason for your errors, but I guess it is possible.

I would be surprised if the sensor would be any more likely to get damaged by running a test ‘dry’ than it would simply by sitting there dry (i.e. several days between tests), but I have no idea how this things works so maybe it is.

 

[Karen00]

Wow, it's a bit disappointing to read that the sensor can be damaged so easily by extending the time between testing (presumably from sitting dry). I totally understand the folks that have systems that require a lot of tests to be run per day for stability but there's a whole group of people that are seemingly ineligible for this device if they only need to test every few days or weekly. I for one would love to have the accuracy and automation this device provides but at this point I only need to test weekly. It seems to me this could be resolved by having the sensors sit in RODI water that gets flushed before a test is run so if a weekly (or every four day) schedule is set the system would automatically fill with RODI to keep the sensors from drying out. They're eliminating a whole segment of the hobby that could use this device.

 

[FishyFishFish]

I’m not sure they’re excluding anyone; you could test more frequently but you don’t want to. That said, I’m guessing the target market for this device is people who do test frequently as I’m not sure how many people who test once a week would justify the cost of an IOND over manual testing.

The bigger omission for me is the lack of phosphate testing, although I understand that might be very difficult. If I have an automated tester but still have to test one of the main parameters manually, then it loses some of its appeal.

 

[Karen00]

I’m not sure they’re excluding anyone; you could test more frequently but you don’t want to. That said, I’m guessing the target market for this device is people who do test frequently as I’m not sure how many people who test once a week would justify the cost of an IOND over manual testing.

The bigger omission for me is the lack of phosphate testing, although I understand that might be very difficult. If I have an automated tester but still have to test one of the main parameters manually, then it loses some of its appeal.

If I had the money to drop on this device I would. I hate fidgeting with the manual testing weekly. I could get the Hannah eggs but you still have to fill them up, etc. This device would be great but it looks like I'm not the right person for this device if the sensors get ruined from not being used. Bummer.

 

[Dr. Jim]

It seems like I've gotten conflicting information. At Reefapalooza, Vinny told me that the IOND sensor sits in a very small chamber that is constantly filled with water. This would make one think that it is OK not to run it every day. But, it has also been said that "it is hard to say how the sensor will react to extended testing intervals...."

I'm planning on being away from my aquarium for several months for the summer and plan to run the IOND every 4-5 days so I will see what happens. It can be run this way either by setting it with a switch channel (but the IOND has to be the last device on the "PAB chain"); or, it can be run manually (but then you'd have to remember to run it manually which may get to be a pain). I will probably try to put it on the end of the PAB chain and do the same with the KH Director since I plan to run that every other day. It is recommended not to go more than 3 days with the KH Director because the KH sensor is not stored in a wet chamber as is the IOND sensor. I don't want to push the KH to the limit of every 3 days which is my reason for "every other day."

 

[Gaël]

It can be run this way either by setting it with a switch channel (but the IOND has to be the last device on the "PAB chain")

? :-/

 

[FishyFishFish]

? :-/

The only reason I could think this might be a consideration is if you are physically turning off the socket that the IOND is plugged in to.

I assume the PAB signal doesn’t pass through devices that are turned off (but I don’t know if that is true or not)?

 

[Dr. Jim]

The only reason I could think this might be a consideration is if you are physically turning off the socket that the IOND is plugged in to.

I assume the PAB signal doesn’t pass through devices that are turned off (but I don’t know if that is true or not)?

Yes....that is correct.

 

[areefer01]

I’m not sure they’re excluding anyone; you could test more frequently but you don’t want to. That said, I’m guessing the target market for this device is people who do test frequently as I’m not sure how many people who test once a week would justify the cost of an IOND over manual testing.

The bigger omission for me is the lack of phosphate testing, although I understand that might be very difficult. If I have an automated tester but still have to test one of the main parameters manually, then it loses some of its appeal.

I think the concern is number of tests per day or per week before the probe needs to be replaced. Test per day, cost per probe, reference solution, etc. Entry price isn't the concern.

 

[Gaël]

The only reason I could think this might be a consideration is if you are physically turning off the socket that the IOND is plugged in to.

I assume the PAB signal doesn’t pass through devices that are turned off (but I don’t know if that is true or not)?

Yes....that is correct.

Won't work. You will constantly get a PAB alarm.

 

[Member No 1]

Won't work. You will constantly get a PAB alarm.

This! Regardless where in the "PAB" chain the device is, the P4 will be looking for it. If it's turned off, and not found, you will get a PAB error.

 

[FishyFishFish]

Won't work. You will constantly get a PAB alarm.

Does getting a PAB alarm mean it won’t work? I get alarms all the time on my Profilux (e.g. level alarms) but it still ‘works’.

 

[Gaël]

Does getting a PAB alarm mean it won’t work? I get alarms all the time on my Profilux (e.g. level alarms) but it still ‘works’.

Yes:
It is absolutely not ok to consider that having alarms is normal... better not having a profilux if it is to be used in this way.
Having a permanent alarm is the best way to miss a real alarm that will be masked by this permanent alarm.
So I imagine that you have deactivated the audible buzzer of the Profilux and/or the Profilux Touch...
Also note that only push notifications will allow you to receive a double alarm, emails and sms will only be triggered once and will not signal the second alarm until the first alarm is fixed.
You also do without being able to use the "alarm" function of the programmable logics and switchable channels.
You will be able to miss critical alarms such as a leak alarm inside the KHD or IOND which will lead to their destruction.
Finally, be aware that it is not possible to do this with the ION Director, in fact the MUI probe must be powered permanently otherwise it will take hours for it to stabilize and to perform a reliable measurement.

Gaël

 

[Dr. Jim]

Won't work. You will constantly get a PAB alarm.

Interesting. I only mentioned putting the IOND at the end of the PAB chain because that is what Vinny told me I would need to do. I haven't tried it yet but will soon. If it doesn't work on a switch channel, I will just run the tests manually every 4-5 days, or maybe weekly. Do you see any problem with my latter ("weekly") manual plan?

 

[FishyFishFish]

Yes:
It is absolutely not ok to consider that having alarms is normal... better not having a profilux if it is to be used in this way.
Having a permanent alarm is the best way to miss a real alarm that will be masked by this permanent alarm.
So I imagine that you have deactivated the audible buzzer of the Profilux and/or the Profilux Touch...
Also note that only push notifications will allow you to receive a double alarm, emails and sms will only be triggered once and will not signal the second alarm until the first alarm is fixed.
You also do without being able to use the "alarm" function of the programmable logics and switchable channels.
You will be able to miss critical alarms such as a leak alarm inside the KHD or IOND which will lead to their destruction.
Finally, be aware that it is not possible to do this with the ION Director, in fact the MUI probe must be powered permanently otherwise it will take hours for it to stabilize and to perform a reliable measurement.

Gaël

Well there seems to be some more odd programming there then! It should really notify every time a new alarm condition occurs IMO.

And whilst you give some valid reasons why it might not be a good idea to do it, the only thing that appears to prevent it, from your description, is the fact that the probe needs to remain powered.

The ideal solution to this would be for the user to be able to select to test every 3 or 4 days if they choose, but it appears that there may not have been sufficient testing to determine if this would adversely affect the probe life.

 

[Vinny@GHLUSA Verified Sponsor]

It seems like I've gotten conflicting information. At Reefapalooza, Vinny told me that the IOND sensor sits in a very small chamber that is constantly filled with water. This would make one think that it is OK not to run it every day. But, it has also been said that "it is hard to say how the sensor will react to extended testing intervals...."

I'm planning on being away from my aquarium for several months for the summer and plan to run the IOND every 4-5 days so I will see what happens. It can be run this way either by setting it with a switch channel (but the IOND has to be the last device on the "PAB chain"); or, it can be run manually (but then you'd have to remember to run it manually which may get to be a pain). I will probably try to put it on the end of the PAB chain and do the same with the KH Director since I plan to run that every other day. It is recommended not to go more than 3 days with the KH Director because the KH sensor is not stored in a wet chamber as is the IOND sensor. I don't want to push the KH to the limit of every 3 days which is my reason for "every other day."

I have to step-in and clear up the confusion.

IOND sensor does not just sit in "water". It sits in Ref B fluid at the end of each test. Why? Because this is how the probe is stored until the next scheduled test. The minimum testing interval is once per day. Extending that interval is being explored.

We have instructions and guideline for the product in hopes that users will follow them. You are free to experiment with your IOND and KHD sensors and run these extended tests yourself. If one wishes to go on their own and experiment to see what happens, that's on the user. Just know that we provided the instructions on the proper way to use the product and those guidelines were sidestepped.

When we spoke about your plan to turn OFF the IOND, I mentioned the PAB chain because if the IOND comes before any device in the chain and the IOND power is cut, the devices that follow will loose communication with the head unit; the communication chain is interrupted. Hence why I suggested placing the IOND at the end of the chain for your experiment.

As @Gaël mentioned, you'll also have the non-stop PAB alarm.

If you have the space, you could use two 3L containers and fill each up with Reference fluid. That will get you over 6 months of testing 1x/day.