Dosing all for reef and 0 nitrate and 0 phosphates

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Just a small "clarification"... It is currently theorized, that much (not all) of the metabolization of the formate is done by bacteria located within the coral polyps. While other amounts happen in the substrate, coral structure and other areas within the tank system. Not to imply that the metabolization is done by the coral polyp itself.

Thanks, Lou.

 

[capt_alaver]

I know this is an old thread but I want to chime in with my All-For-Reef experience on a 2.6g Pico Reef --- for the Googlers.

It was lightly stocked with a cleaner shrimp, a couple of hermits & emeralds, softies, lots of LPS and a few SPS corals. Filtration included... nothing lol. Just sand, rocks, a couple of MarinePure Gems and the occasional bag of BRS carbon. Nitrates were ~5ppm and Phosphates were 0.03-0.05ppm.

Weekly water changes weren't keeping up with the Ca/Alk demand anymore so I started dosing the system with AFR. Nitrates and Phosphates completely bottomed out. I started feeding a stupid amount of food but NO3 and PO4 still didn't budge from zero.

I bought NeoPhos and NeoNitro and started the daily dosing. It was pretty alarming how fast those nutrients were being consumed! 5ppm of NO3 and 0.10ppm of PO4 dosed in the morning, they were both zero by dinner time. At my wits end with it, I gave up on AFR and will be using 2-part.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I know this is an old thread but I want to chime in with my All-For-Reef experience on a 2.6g Pico Reef --- for the Googlers.

It was lightly stocked with a cleaner shrimp, a couple of hermits & emeralds, softies, lots of LPS and a few SPS corals. Filtration included... nothing lol. Just sand, rocks, a couple of MarinePure Gems and the occasional bag of BRS carbon. Nitrates were ~5ppm and Phosphates were 0.03-0.05ppm.

Weekly water changes weren't keeping up with the Ca/Alk demand anymore so I started dosing the system with AFR. Nitrates and Phosphates completely bottomed out. I started feeding a stupid amount of food but NO3 and PO4 still didn't budge from zero.

I bought NeoPhos and NeoNitro and started the daily dosing. It was pretty alarming how fast those nutrients were being consumed! 5ppm of NO3 and 0.10ppm of PO4 dosed in the morning, they were both zero by dinner time. At my wits end with it, I gave up on AFR and will be using 2-part.

Ok, keep us updated on whether the nutrient levels change switching to a two part.

FWIW, once phosphate hits zero it can take a lot to bring it back, even with no biological consumption, since it will bind to rock and sand.

 

[reeferJMX]

I know this is an old thread but I want to chime in with my All-For-Reef experience on a 2.6g Pico Reef --- for the Googlers.

It was lightly stocked with a cleaner shrimp, a couple of hermits & emeralds, softies, lots of LPS and a few SPS corals. Filtration included... nothing lol. Just sand, rocks, a couple of MarinePure Gems and the occasional bag of BRS carbon. Nitrates were ~5ppm and Phosphates were 0.03-0.05ppm.

Weekly water changes weren't keeping up with the Ca/Alk demand anymore so I started dosing the system with AFR. Nitrates and Phosphates completely bottomed out. I started feeding a stupid amount of food but NO3 and PO4 still didn't budge from zero.

I bought NeoPhos and NeoNitro and started the daily dosing. It was pretty alarming how fast those nutrients were being consumed! 5ppm of NO3 and 0.10ppm of PO4 dosed in the morning, they were both zero by dinner time. At my wits end with it, I gave up on AFR and will be using 2-part.

Interesting find (Yes, I am a Googler ). I have been running All-for-Reef since March 2021 on a 65 Gallon Mixed Reef (JBJ 65 AIO with a hang-on the back overflow to a 25 gallon Fiji Cube sump). Running mechanical, skimmer, and a small fuge (12 hours). I always had 0 Phospates and 0 Nitrates. I thought the filtration is doing an awesome job, until I noticed some of my LPS corals aren't doing that great. Candy Cane colony wasn't puffing up that much, but still has growth. Lobo turned brown despite having 70 to 100 PAR on the sandbed. 3 months ago, got a nice Trachy and that started to not puff up as well. I feed 2x with Hikari Mega Marine (day) and Hikari pellets (night). Daytime 1x Red Sea AB+, 1x Reef Roids, 1x Nori. Still 0 Phosphates and Nitrates.

I was actually looking at ways to increase Nitrates, and got me to this thread as I was looking into NeoNitro. But the OP and some other threads here is about the relationship of dosing All for Reef. I was about to load up on the powder mix as I am running out of my DIY kit, but am reconsidering.

For my test kits, I started with Salifert. Now, moved up to Hanna ULR Phosphate and HR Nitrate.

I know every reef tank is different, and at this point, don't really want a ULN reef tank as I am planning to stock up on more LPS brain and scoly type corals. I understand that up to 1 ppm of Phosphates and 5 ppm of Nitrates is generally ideal (even up to 20 ppm of Nitrates).

 

[arking_mark]

Interesting find (Yes, I am a Googler ). I have been running All-for-Reef since March 2021 on a 65 Gallon Mixed Reef (JBJ 65 AIO with a hang-on the back overflow to a 25 gallon Fiji Cube sump). Running mechanical, skimmer, and a small fuge (12 hours). I always had 0 Phospates and 0 Nitrates. I thought the filtration is doing an awesome job, until I noticed some of my LPS corals aren't doing that great. Candy Cane colony wasn't puffing up that much, but still has growth. Lobo turned brown despite having 70 to 100 PAR on the sandbed. 3 months ago, got a nice Trachy and that started to not puff up as well. I feed 2x with Hikari Mega Marine (day) and Hikari pellets (night). Daytime 1x Red Sea AB+, 1x Reef Roids, 1x Nori. Still 0 Phosphates and Nitrates.

I was actually looking at ways to increase Nitrates, and got me to this thread as I was looking into NeoNitro. But the OP and some other threads here is about the relationship of dosing All for Reef. I was about to load up on the powder mix as I am running out of my DIY kit, but am reconsidering.

For my test kits, I started with Salifert. Now, moved up to Hanna ULR Phosphate and HR Nitrate.

I know every reef tank is different, and at this point, don't really want a ULN reef tank as I am planning to stock up on more LPS brain and scoly type corals. I understand that up to 1 ppm of Phosphates and 5 ppm of Nitrates is generally ideal (even up to 20 ppm of Nitrates).

You can also try heavy in...as you may already have heavy out. Get a larger bioload of fish and critters and/or increase feedings. Wet/Frozen in lower in PO4 while dry is heavier in PO4.

 

[areefer01]

Interesting find (Yes, I am a Googler ). I have been running All-for-Reef since March 2021 on a 65 Gallon Mixed Reef (JBJ 65 AIO with a hang-on the back overflow to a 25 gallon Fiji Cube sump). Running mechanical, skimmer, and a small fuge (12 hours). I always had 0 Phospates and 0 Nitrates. I thought the filtration is doing an awesome job, until I noticed some of my LPS corals aren't doing that great. Candy Cane colony wasn't puffing up that much, but still has growth. Lobo turned brown despite having 70 to 100 PAR on the sandbed. 3 months ago, got a nice Trachy and that started to not puff up as well. I feed 2x with Hikari Mega Marine (day) and Hikari pellets (night). Daytime 1x Red Sea AB+, 1x Reef Roids, 1x Nori. Still 0 Phosphates and Nitrates.

I was actually looking at ways to increase Nitrates, and got me to this thread as I was looking into NeoNitro. But the OP and some other threads here is about the relationship of dosing All for Reef. I was about to load up on the powder mix as I am running out of my DIY kit, but am reconsidering.

For my test kits, I started with Salifert. Now, moved up to Hanna ULR Phosphate and HR Nitrate.

I know every reef tank is different, and at this point, don't really want a ULN reef tank as I am planning to stock up on more LPS brain and scoly type corals. I understand that up to 1 ppm of Phosphates and 5 ppm of Nitrates is generally ideal (even up to 20 ppm of Nitrates).

So are you implying that dosing AFR is reduced your phosphate? In my use case I can say TM AFR does not reduce either (nitrate or phosphate). My phosphate is over .61 ppm and my AFR dosing varies but usually around 90 ml/day.

 

[biom]

I know every reef tank is different, and at this point, don't really want a ULN reef tank as I am planning to stock up on more LPS brain and scoly type corals. I understand that up to 1 ppm of Phosphates and 5 ppm of Nitrates is generally ideal (even up to 20 ppm of Nitrates).

I don't think up to 1 ppm is a good idea, i know there are some wonderful exemptions of tanks running high phosphates but I know hundreds tanks that crashed at this levels.
And for sure there are no benefits for running tanks above 0.1 ppm phosphates, the fact some very experienced reefers could run tanks with these numbers is not a reason to go there IMO.

Running a refugium and a carbon source (which AFR is even it is weak one) in the same time is not good idea and easily can led to zero nutrients, the trace elements in AFR could also help for this to happen.

 

[reeferJMX]

I don't think up to 1 ppm is a good idea, i know there are some wonderful exemptions of tanks running high phosphates but I know hundreds tanks that crashed at this levels.
And for sure there are no benefits for running tanks above 0.1 ppm phosphates, the fact some very experienced reefers could run tanks with these numbers is not a reason to go there IMO.

Running a refugium and a carbon source (which AFR is even it is weak one) in the same time is not good idea and easily can led to zero nutrients, the trace elements in AFR could also help for this to happen.

Yes, up to .1 PPM Phosphates -- Thanks for correcting me.

The refugium point that you made does makes sense. I don't know how much it can help, but I just started turning-off my skimmer in the evening (6 p.m. to 6 a.m.), while the Refugium light covers that duration at night (12 hours). So far, almost a week doing this method, the only swing is my PH from 8.10 to 7.93.

AFR does maintain my parameters, and that was my intention when it was introduced to us reefers. I only have one X1 doser, 17ml day to maintain the below parameters:

Mag 1470
Calc 490
Alk 10

Temp is 77.7
Salinity 1.025
Nitrates 0 to .1 (based on Hanna HR)
Phosphates 0.03 (based on Hanna ULR)
PH 8.10 to 7.93 (swing due to scheduled skimmer and refugium light)

Pics attached to see my setup. All corals and fishes are alive, but started being concerned due to LPS coloration despite my efforts.

Any help is really appreciated -- for this expensive hobby

 

[biom]

Very nice tank full of life and looks mature Thanks for the pictures. I don’t think stopping the skimmer during the night is good idea. With that number of corals it can be very dangerous all of them need oxygen. Not sure where fuge is on the picture. is it on the left side of the sump? But in any case I don’t think it would be sufficient to cover oxygen needs for all your fish and coral during night hours.
I don’t think you need refugium in this full of life and mature tank. I would slowly start to reduce light and amount of chaeto. And definitely start feeding more with coral food you have so many big softies and LPS they will be so happy. And increase your fish numbers if you feel comfortable.
17 ml of AFR is a small dose as carbon source and is not the reason for the low nutrients. Your corals are the reason so feed them more: ) and they will be happy.
but don’t do anything fast and extreme (like stopping skimmer overnight)

 

[reeferJMX]

@biom - Thanks for all your inputs and advises. The fluctuation on PH is not good as well so ensure skimmer is kept operational at all times.

@arking_mark - In my reef tank / situation, I am going to just accept that I need to increase feeding AND that I have a too "good" of a nutrient export in-place.

@areefer01 - I believe this thread is mostly the relationship with AFR to possibly reduction of Phosphates and Nitrates (not confirmed).

Thanks to all.

 

[areefer01]

@areefer01 - I believe this thread is mostly the relationship with AFR to possibly reduction of Phosphates and Nitrates (not confirmed).

Thanks for the clarification. I can only speak for my usage of AFR but I've never seen a reduction in either nitrate or phosphate with the product.

 

[arking_mark]

Thanks for the clarification. I can only speak for my usage of AFR but I've never seen a reduction in either nitrate or phosphate with the product.

It's just that AFR provides a mild carbon source for the tank...carbon dosing helps reduce nitrates and some uptake of phosphates.

 

[areefer01]

It's just that AFR provides a mild carbon source for the tank...carbon dosing helps reduce nitrates and some uptake of phosphates.

I know what AFR does - I was only stating that I've never seen any form of nutrient drop (nitrate or phosphates) when using the product (as it relates to my experience and display). I am not saying that it does, or does not.

 

[arking_mark]

I know what AFR does - I was only stating that I've never seen any form of nutrient drop (nitrate or phosphates) when using the product (as it relates to my experience and display). I am not saying that it does, or does not.

Gotcha.

 

[Acros]

I used AFR for 1.5 years and always struggled with keeping detectable nutrients. Nitrates stayed at 0.0ppm for the entire duration. If I dose nitrates, it will stay at dosed levels for a few days before returning to 0.0ppm. On the positive side, phosphates stayed below 0.08ppm.

Ever since switching to ESV B-Ionic earlier this year, I have ~1.0ppm nitrates with regular feeding. However, I have to run a GFO reactor to keep phosphates under 0.08ppm. My acors look significantly better with much deeper coloration now. With AFR, everything looked a little pale. I will use AFR if I have a future tank that naturally stays at elevated nutrient levels. It is a no-go for me when dealing with a tank that stays at low nutrient levels.

 

[AquaForge]

Sorry to necro, but google brought me here. Before dosing AFR my Phos and Nitrates were ~0.05 and ~10/12 respectively. I had no idea that AFR was a carbon source as its not really advertised as such. Now my Phos is 0.00 and Nitrates are 1 for over a week. I bought some NP+ from BRS but will take a few days to get here. I am feeding dry (Dr Bassiles) and Reef Roids (Which in the past blew up my Phos) Nothing will bring it over 0.00. I am hoping that NP+ will help as it seems that Lou recommends it for this situation. By the way my corals are all poofy and happy. Even my coral canaries are sufficiently happy.

Here are my stats as of last tests:

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I would feed more or dose N and P which are inexpensive and easy. NP+ may be a fine product, but as a general rule I do not generally recommend product with unknown ingredients. Also, tieing the N and P dosing together gives you less control.

For N, I think ammonium bicarbonate is best, but ammonium chloride, calcium nitrate and sodium nitrate are all acceptable.

For phosphate I recommend sodium phosphate of various forms (not sodium tripolyphosphate).

 

[JayM]

Interesting that I came across this thread when I did. I normally use Ready 2 Reef as that's what my LFS carries, but I missed the notification from my doser that it was low, so I ordered AFR last night for delivery today (LFS isn't really that local).

I'm curious if the R2R is similar to AFR in the mild carbon dosing effect or not. I'm hoping not as my N & P steadily rose a few months back for no apparent reason (N up to high 20's from mid-high teens, and P up from less than .1 into the .15-.18 ballpark) and I wouldn't be sad to see a bit of a reduction.

 

[AquaForge]

I would feed more or dose N and P which are inexpensive and easy. NP+ may be a fine product, but as a general rule I do not generally recommend product with unknown ingredients. Also, tieing the N and P dosing together gives you less control.

For N, I think ammonium bicarbonate is best, but ammonium chloride, calcium nitrate and sodium nitrate are all acceptable.

For phosphate I recommend sodium phosphate of various forms (not sodium tripolyphosphate).

Thanks Randy! I already bought the NP+ but can get the others on your recommendation. I appreciate the feedback.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Interesting that I came across this thread when I did. I normally use Ready 2 Reef as that's what my LFS carries, but I missed the notification from my doser that it was low, so I ordered AFR last night for delivery today (LFS isn't really that local).

I'm curious if the R2R is similar to AFR in the mild carbon dosing effect or not. I'm hoping not as my N & P steadily rose a few months back for no apparent reason (N up to high 20's from mid-high teens, and P up from less than .1 into the .15-.18 ballpark) and I wouldn't be sad to see a bit of a reduction.

It likely is similar to AFR, but they do not reveal the organics present in the web site description. The carbon dosing effect is similar to AFR, or higher.