Dosing CP not copper questions

[ddc0715]

Or dosing question. Does this statement TREAT FOR 10 DAYS. mean dose daily?


CP Protocol #1 (preferred): Dose 15 mg/L (60 mg/gal) into a bare bottom, rockless QT (see pic below) and treat for 10 days.


Sooooo.In a 10G Qt tank I intrupt this math to be as follows. 600 MG DAILY. that seems like alot. Is this correct?

 

[Greg P]

You only dose it once for the 10 day period, but dose any replacement water if you perform water changes.

Chloroquine Phosphate

Chloroquine Phosphate (updated 9-06-2023) What It Treats: Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans), Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium ocellatum), Brooklynella hostilis and Uronema marinum. Please Note: Chloroquine is unlikely to eliminate internal (or intracellular) Uronema. How To Buy...

humble.fish

 

[Gtinnel]

Don't confuse the concentration of copper in the water mg/L with thinking that it is the amount of liquid to add. It's not saying add 15 ml per liter.

And as already pointed out you just need to keep it at the correct concentration for time frame (10 days from what you mentioned) not add more every day.

Edit- Notice that is milliGRAMS per liter not milliLITERS per liter. Mg/L is essentially ppm.

 

[ddc0715]

i do not use copper, i have lost more fish in qt using copper than other meds.

 

[Gtinnel]

i do not use copper, i have lost more fish in qt using copper than other meds.

Sorry I was thinking copper power when you put CP even though in the title you put not copper LOL. My statement about it being a concentration in the water should still be true but in this case it seems to also be the amount (by weight) to dose. I have never used chloroquine phosphate so I don't have any personal experience but after doing some reading it seems like you just need to keep it at that concentration. Although since it can break down with biofiltration and there doesn't seem to be a test for it, I'm not sure how to tell if you should add more to the tank.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Or dosing question. Does this statement TREAT FOR 10 DAYS. mean dose daily?


CP Protocol #1 (preferred): Dose 15 mg/L (60 mg/gal) into a bare bottom, rockless QT (see pic below) and treat for 10 days.


Sooooo.In a 10G Qt tank I intrupt this math to be as follows. 600 MG DAILY. that seems like alot. Is this correct?

As pointed out, it is a one time dose. It persists in water for a pretty long time, up to 30 days or so. Trouble is, without an ultraviolet spectrophotometer, there is no way to measure it, so after the first dose, you can't really do much other than "let it ride" unless you change all of the water and redose fully. Here is an article I wrote some time ago. I since ran into some serious toxicity issues with CP and I've stopped using it and have gone back to Coppersafe.

Aquarium Fish: Chloroquine: A “New” Drug for Treating Fish Diseases

While not a panacea or miracle drug, chloroquine is experiencing resurgence in popularity for use in fish-only aquariums and quarantine systems to treat a variety of problems ranging from Cryptocaryon to Aiptasia anemone infestations.

reefs.com

Jay

 

[ddc0715]

I will diffently read that. According to all I have read so far it's 60mg per gal initial dose an 6 mg daily after that for 10 days. I'm starting with 40mg initial an 4mg daily.. Slow I believe is best when using a new med. Since I have had velvet wipe out alot of offish I will assume they all have it an the look as if they do. But they are not completely covered. So I am assuming this will be a early stage id of the disease. Because the other that did not make it were clearly covered.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I will diffently read that. According to all I have read so far it's 60mg per gal initial dose an 6 mg daily after that for 10 days. I'm starting with 40mg initial an 4mg daily.. Slow I believe is best when using a new med. Since I have had velvet wipe out alot of offish I will assume they all have it an the look as if they do. But they are not completely covered. So I am assuming this will be a early stage id of the disease. Because the other that did not make it were clearly covered.

Just doing the math in my head (never a good thing), isn’t your dose going to end up at around 20 ppm? That is the highest dose I’ve ever used and I saw a lot of toxicity in certain species (lion fish and wrasse). The first dose is even higher, like 30 ppm …..
Jay

 

[ddc0715]

Honsetly I'm not sure.on the ppm. I'm just following humble fish guide for dosing it. An scaling it back a hair just in case, Its All I have to go by, an seems to be a well referred site by most.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Honsetly I'm not sure.on the ppm. I'm just following humble fish guide for dosing it. An scaling it back a hair just in case, Its All I have to go by, an seems to be a well referred site by most.

ppm = mg/l, I tend to swap those back and forth, and I understand it confuses people - bad habit on my part.

From what I can see, that dose is too high, 40 mg/gallon is the typical dose. What you outlined would end up with 120 mg/gallon. Noga, Herwig and my own paper all agree.

Here is the excerpt on it from my upcoming disease book:

Chloroquine quarantine:
Chloroquine is reportedly used at a wide range of concentrations, from 5 to 20 milligrams per liter (mg/l). This huge range is likely a result of too few studies being performed to truly determine what is the best dosage.

A 5 mg/l dose should be used as a quarantine preventative (not for active diseases) or for treating delicate species (although little is known about the sensitivity of different fish species to this medication). A dose of 8 mg/l is considered the “standard dose” for treating most active protozoan infections, while the 20 mg/l dose would be reserved for attempting to eradicate difficult-to-treat Uronema marinum infections. Toxicity in some fish species has been reported at doses above 15 mg/l. Wrasses, surgeonfish, and lionfish seem to be very sensitive to chloroquine. The length of a typical chloroquine treatment is 14 days (as a preventative) to 30 days (for an active infection).

Chloroquine is also toxic to many invertebrates, algae, and bacteria. Seriously high ammonia levels (greater than 1 mg/l NH3-N) are sometimes seen a few days to a week after dosing an aquarium with chloroquine. It is unknown why this is seen in some aquariums but not others. One hypothesis is that the chloroquine has a direct antibiotic effect on the nitrifying bacteria. Another idea is that the chloroquine kills so much microscopic life in the aquarium that the beneficial bacteria are overwhelmed and an ammonia spike develops. Most likely, the cause is a combination of both factors. Always monitor the ammonia levels in aquariums during treatment with chloroquine. Never expose aquarium water treated with chloroquine to ultraviolet light, either through UV sterilization or natural sunlight. It is suspected that UV reacts with chloroquine to create compounds that either are toxic to the animals, or that reduce the effectiveness of the treatment – or both.

Jay

 

[ddc0715]

Interesting Interesting....innnnteresting. I'm sad to say tho.. I have already provided the 40 mg per gallon initial dose to my 10 g tank. I wonder as to how some came to a solid conclusion that a 60mg per gallon dose was an acceptable level Of cp? we may never know and I'm sure it was trial testing.

based on your well thought out summary. Do you think it's best to preform a water change to lower the ppm. With out test equipment I would be assuming with each gallon removed that I would be exporting 40mgper gallon. Since that's the way I added.

Or just let it ride out an not dose the additional 4mg daily? I will buy your book when it comes out cause I'm ocd about this hobby. Always want to know more.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Interesting Interesting....innnnteresting. I'm sad to say tho.. I have already provided the 40 mg per gallon initial dose to my 10 g tank. I wonder as to how some came to a solid conclusion that a 60mg per gallon dose was an acceptable level Of cp? we may never know and I'm sure it was trial testing.

based on your well thought out summary. Do you think it's best to preform a water change to lower the ppm. With out test equipment I would be assuming with each gallon removed that I would be exporting 40mgper gallon. Since that's the way I added.

Or just let it ride out an not dose the additional 4mg daily? I will buy your book when it comes out cause I'm ocd about this hobby. Always want to know more.

60 mg per gallon is 15 mg/l so that is a standard/high dose. It was that 6 mg / gallon for the next 10 days that was wrong, that ends you up at 120 mg/ gallon and that’s too high.
Jay

 

[ReefHog]

Honsetly I'm not sure.on the ppm. I'm just following humble fish guide for dosing it. An scaling it back a hair just in case, Its All I have to go by, an seems to be a well referred site by most.

You have your information wrong. The 60mg/g is for one time dose in sterile QT. The 40mg/g is for dosing in QT with a full working bio filtration. Due to the possible degradation of the CP adding 1mg/g per day following the initial dose I’d recommend. After the 10 or 14 days if there were no degradation, you’d only be at 50 or 54mg/g. If there were some degradation, the thinking is you would still be within range. I have not seen anywhere the dosing amounts you have stated. I’m by no stretch an expert but I have treated about 24 fish in the last two years and have had only one failure. And that was a screw up on my part which resulted in the level dropping out of range. I always make sure fish are eating prior to treating with CP.

 

[ddc0715]

as I stated in the following humble fish..in a sterile tank... it just talks about an initial dose which seems high to me. it says NOTHING ABOUT DAILY DOSING, other than replacement of the med after a water change with no given amounts so the replacement amount was my guess on how much to use as a replacement dose. so let's keep this simple. I do love learning about this but need to ensure i get it right. today is day two in my qt setup.

ok here is what i get when i do the math.
Measure (in inches) the length, width and height of the water inside the aquarium from the top of the gravel layer to the water’s surface, and inside the glass front to back and side to side. Multiple these three numbers to get the gross volume in cubic inches and then divide by 231 to determine the volume in gallons (there are 231 cubic inches in a US gallon).

• 9g ( I don’t fill my qt to the top)

Deduct an estimated percentage for tank decorations. If you are unsure, the decorations in a typical marine aquarium with artificial coral and rock displace about 15% of the water volume, so you would multiply the gross volume from step 1 by 0.85

• No decor

Use the same technique to measure the volume of the gravel layer (if any), but multiply the result by 0.30, as only about 30% of the gravel layer is water, the rest of the volume is the gravel itself.

• No gravel

Use the same technique to measure the volume of the sump (if any).

• No sump

Except for very large systems, the amount of water contained in the filtration system is inconsequential, but you might want to add a couple of gallons to the estimate if the tank uses a large canister filter.

• NA

Add these measurements together to arrive at the estimated net aquarium volume in gallons.

• 9G

Once you have estimated the aquarium system volume, multiply the number of gallons by the target dose of the drug (in mg/l or parts per million). Dividing this by 266 will give the number of grams of medication that needs to be added to the water.

Qt tank is a sterile tank with no biofilter
normal dose to be used as a quarantine preventative (not for active diseases) 10mg/l
9g x 10= 90
90/266 = 0.34 grams

normal dose for treating most protozoan infections at 15mg/l
9g x 15= 135
135/266 =0.51 grams

Normal initial dose attempting to eradicate difficult-to-treat infections at 20 mg/l
9g x 20=180
180/266= 0.67 grams

Replacement medication during a 2 Gallon Water change

normal dose to be used as a quarantine preventative (not for active diseases) 10mg/l
2g x 10= 20
20/266 = 0.075 grams

normal dose for treating most protozoan infections at 15mg/l
2g x 15= 30
30/266 =0.112 grams

Normal initial dose attempting to eradicate difficult-to-treat infections at 20 mg/l
2g x 20=40
40/266= 0.150 grams

so my initial dose of .40 grams is safe because I'm in between preventative and infections (imo) and I will only add new meds after a water change. since I can find no solid math on degradation. thoughts?

 

[ReefHog]

Wow. I haven’t looked at that many equations since high school. This is the protocols I have been using with very good success. The volume I just measure the inside dementions of the aquarium. Don’t worry about decorations or a thin layer of sand.

Chloroquine Phosphate

Chloroquine Phosphate (updated 9-06-2023) What It Treats: Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans), Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium ocellatum), Brooklynella hostilis and Uronema marinum. Please Note: Chloroquine is unlikely to eliminate internal (or intracellular) Uronema. How To Buy...

humble.fish

 

[ddc0715]

that math is based off of Jay hemdals paper he wrote. (the link is somewhere above). Anyway, I to started following the humble fish thread on this med prior to dosing. my original post was seeking clarity on a few things from their proposed process.

1. humble fish states
"60mg/g initial dose",

so in a 10g STERILE qt ( their protcool #1) my initial dose would have been 600 mg or (.60 grams) seems like a large dose to me when it costs $4-5 per 250mg pill.

2. humble fish states
"when performing a water change it is very important to dose CP back into any replacement water before adding it to the QT. This ensures that the concentration of medication in the QT remains therapeutic at all times."

SO do we just assume is it 60mg/ g once again? if so then a wc of 2 gallons would mean 120mg dose or .12 grams. my point being why write an in-depth article and not include example calculates for people.

3. hey humble fish add some examples of dosing per tank size and some examples of dosing per gallons of water changed to your site.

many threads that I have read, are the same; many people are just filling in the gap for WC and degradation amounts using their best-educated judgment .as a hobbyist who wants to use it correctly as possible. I find that the errors in using the best judgment are just risky. And I don't want people yelling at me when I post a future thread. ;Joyful . an they will. you know the type----- my neighbor who owns a LFS SAID" HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

 

[DeniseAndy]

I have used CP on my QT. I have never used copper. I had one hogfish not survive the protocol, but it may be because I did 12 days, not 10. Lost him on the 13th day. Bummer.

I will not use CP on wrasses.

I used a 40mg/gal and dosed the water change amount. I have also used the 60mg/gal with good results. Fish seem to tolerate it well for the ones I qted (spotbreast angelfish, yellow tang, damsels, Kole tang). Good luck!

 

[ReefHog]

that math is based off of Jay hemdals paper he wrote. (the link is somewhere above). Anyway, I to started following the humble fish thread on this med prior to dosing. my original post was seeking clarity on a few things from their proposed process.

1. humble fish states
"60mg/g initial dose",

so in a 10g STERILE qt ( their protcool #1) my initial dose would have been 600 mg or (.60 grams) seems like a large dose to me when it costs $4-5 per 250mg pill.

2. humble fish states
"when performing a water change it is very important to dose CP back into any replacement water before adding it to the QT. This ensures that the concentration of medication in the QT remains therapeutic at all times."

SO do we just assume is it 60mg/ g once again? if so then a wc of 2 gallons would mean 120mg dose or .12 grams. my point being why write an in-depth article and not include example calculates for people.

3. hey humble fish add some examples of dosing per tank size and some examples of dosing per gallons of water changed to your site.

many threads that I have read, are the same; many people are just filling in the gap for WC and degradation amounts using their best-educated judgment .as a hobbyist who wants to use it correctly as possible. I find that the errors in using the best judgment are just risky. And I don't want people yelling at me when I post a future thread. ;Joyful . an they will. you know the type----- my neighbor who owns a LFS SAID" HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

1. CP can be expensive, especially if your going through a pharmacy. But you can't compromise on on cost vs. medication amount used as there are specific therapeutic levels that must be maintained (what ever QT method one uses). I buy 100g. in bulk powder which comes out very comparable to copper power.

2. Yes. Honestly, you are just overthinking things. If your therapeutic dose is 60mg/g, then all and any water changes would need to match the water that was removed prior to adding it back into the QT. There is no reason to think the therapeutic dose would be any different in replacement water. Just do your water changes in one gallon increments and times that by your original therapeutic dose.

 

[ReefHog]

I have used CP on my QT. I have never used copper. I had one hogfish not survive the protocol, but it may be because I did 12 days, not 10. Lost him on the 13th day. Bummer.

I will not use CP on wrasses.

I used a 40mg/gal and dosed the water change amount. I have also used the 60mg/gal with good results. Fish seem to tolerate it well for the ones I qted (spotbreast angelfish, yellow tang, damsels, Kole tang). Good luck!

Many types of Wrasses, Hippo Tangs and some others do not respond well to CP.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Many types of Wrasses, Hippo Tangs and some others do not respond well to CP.

Add lion fish to that list.
Jay