Dosing help!

[Chiefmaster30]

I have been trying to figure out my dose to start dosing all, mag, and calcium. My goals when I started were alk-10, cal-450, and mag-1250. I got all of my parameters where I wanted them. Then kept testing for the past week. Sometime during getting my Params right my cal went to 460 and mag went to 1300. So ever day for the past week mag and cal have stayed steady at these levels. Alk drops from 10-9.75 every day. Does this mean I just need to dose alk or should I keep testing and wait for cal and mag to drop.

 

[Flippers4pups]

Your tank may consume more alkalinity than calcium and magnesium. So yes, you will, from time to time, need to dose alkalinity separately.

My tank uses more alkalinity, thus I have to dose alkalinity every other day.

 

[definitionofreal]

I have been trying to figure out my dose to start dosing all, mag, and calcium. My goals when I started were alk-10, cal-450, and mag-1250. I got all of my parameters where I wanted them. Then kept testing for the past week. Sometime during getting my Params right my cal went to 460 and mag went to 1300. So ever day for the past week mag and cal have stayed steady at these levels. Alk drops from 10-9.75 every day. Does this mean I just need to dose alk or should I keep testing and wait for cal and mag to drop.

You will need to test and dose daily to keep params in check. I would start dosing alk before you start having to chase it.

 

[fishflipper]

You do not need to test magnesium very often. Once it is good just test for alk and cal. Test everyday and try to test around the same time everyday and dose accordingly. Keep track of all your data. The tank may consume more alk than cal.

 

[Billdogg]

What are you dosing with? I use BRS 2 part supplements because I find them easy to use and reasonably priced.

I really don't think you need to worry about Magnesium dosing on a regular basis. Your tank will use it so slowly that daily additions are just not needed. Water changes alone can easily keep up with it in many systems.

You might also find that a lower Alkalinity level will help prevent precipitation onto your equipment. Excess Alk seems to be particularly fond of power head magnets IME. A number closer to 8 will help prevent that. I keep mine at about 8.6 or so.

To determine the amount of additive you will need (regardless of target numbers), test on day 1, then test again several days later. I like to wait 10 days, just to make the math easier

So now lets do some math. :-(

Day 1: Calcium 400, Alk 8.6, Mg 1250 (my target numbers - yours may be different)

Day 10: Calcium 390, Alk 7.0, Mg 1250

So in 10 days your tank has consumed 10ppm Calcium, 1.6dKH, and no measurable Mg.

I use the convenient calculator on the BRS website to determine how much 2-part needed and come up with the following: My system (120g) has used 122.8ml of Calcium supplement, and 137.1ml Alkalinity.


Now for some simple division (and why I use 10 days instead of 7)

122.8ml/10 = 12.3ml/day calcium and 13.7ml Alkalinity solutions.

It is then a simple matter to program your dosing pumps (and I really like the BRS pumps - easy to use, rock solid). Assuming that you have calibrated them per instructions and they both perform as expected (1.1ml/min for mine) you divide your daily amounts by 1.1 to determine how long the pumps need to run. That means for my hypothetical system, I will need to run my Ca pump for ~11 minutes, and the Alk pump for ~13 minutes in order to keep my levels at their target numbers.

Please bear in mind that the number I chose were entirely random. My Systems numbers are actually quite different. In my heavily stocked mostly SPS DT, I use closer to 150ml/day of both CA and Alk. In the 60g Frag tank, I'm adding about 50ml/day of each.

It can take some adjustments over the first few weeks to really dial it in, and don't forget that as your corals grow your dosing requirements will change.

HTH

 

[Susan Edwards]

Posts above say mg is used slowly. I notice I drop about 80 per day. I test in the AM and dose right after. I had a hard time getting it to hit over 1200. Was dosing 50 mil of mg. Now that I have numbers higher, am using RS ABC unless it drops too far then I go back to Kent for expense reasons. Ex:
June 5 Mg 1480 No dosing
June 6 Mg 1360 (-80) Dose 5 mil Red Sea ABC
June 7 Mg 1280 (-80) Dose 30 mil RS ABC
June 8 Mg 1360 Forgot to write down what I dosed
June 9 Mg 1200 Dose 30 Mil Kent (Tested in evening instead of morning with no dosing in the AM)
June 10 Mg 1360 Dosed 6 Mil RS ABC Per instructions, don't need but know if I do not test, numbers will fall too far

I'm aiming for:
Mg at 1350 range
CA at 440 (less up and downs. 390-420)
ALK at 10-12 Is this too high? It varies from 8.5 to 11)

All LPS and softies doing pretty fantastic. SPS not so good as I have high nitrates (using vibrant, nopox and just started biodigest/bioptim

 

[Scott.h]

Posts above say mg is used slowly. I notice I drop about 80 per day. I test in the AM and dose right after. I had a hard time getting it to hit over 1200. Was dosing 50 mil of mg. Now that I have numbers higher, am using RS ABC unless it drops too far then I go back to Kent for expense reasons. Ex:
June 5 Mg 1480 No dosing
June 6 Mg 1360 (-80) Dose 5 mil Red Sea ABC
June 7 Mg 1280 (-80) Dose 30 mil RS ABC
June 8 Mg 1360 Forgot to write down what I dosed
June 9 Mg 1200 Dose 30 Mil Kent (Tested in evening instead of morning with no dosing in the AM)
June 10 Mg 1360 Dosed 6 Mil RS ABC Per instructions, don't need but know if I do not test, numbers will fall too far

I'm aiming for:
Mg at 1350 range
CA at 440 (less up and downs. 390-420)
ALK at 10-12 Is this too high? It varies from 8.5 to 11)

All LPS and softies doing pretty fantastic. SPS not so good as I have high nitrates (using vibrant, nopox and just started biodigest/bioptim

Something is goofy. I only test mg about once a month in all 3 of my systems. Normal water changes usually keep it in check. Maybe spike my water change water once and awhile. I'm not familiar with that product. I just use the brs bulk. What salt and test kit are you using?

By high Nitrates, what is high? You have a lot of different products going on. If you need to save money, back off all the fancy stuff, do a few good water changes with a good salt of your choice, use bulk dosing products. Sps won't like the swings or the high alk.

 

[Susan Edwards]

@Scott.h The tank is 6 mo old. Used IO salt from beginning and always much lower numbers. Started tracking parameters in April. Alk always low-6-7, mg low 900-1000 and CA 350

April: Had trouble keep alk above 7. Dropped into the 6's even using kent 2 part. mg was running 800's to 1100, mostly in 1000's. Ca 350-410.
May: alk 8-10, mg 1000-1200, starting to hit some 1300's, Ca 350-400,
June: Alk 9-12, mg 1200-1360, ca 400-420
Dosing was either kent 2 part--the nano bottles, or kent individual bottles of mg/ca. And alk reef builder powder. Recently bought RS ABC but didn't start using until my numbers fell more in line (much more expensive so didn't want to use large amts. For a LPS tank, they recommend: 12 (I'm happy with 10), CA 440, mg 1310.

Since getting numbers up in more a normal range, my lps and softs are looking fantastic so they are happy. I just can't keep the numbers there even with weekly or twice week water changes. Changed from IO to Red Sea Reef Pro. Just the last week WC. Am hoping it will help and I can use less dosing. I'm hoping in a few months to have things stable enough to buy a dosing system. In case you can't tell, I'm new and learning!

Test kits: Mg/CA Red sea, Alk had a different one. Don't like it. Am almost out so need to order new kit of some sort. No2/3/ph/NH3 API and Red sea

As to the fancy stuff, I have a Huge algae problem. Don't dare put corals on some rocks. Lost one to algae smothering it, fighting it on my polyps/zoa frag-zoa's might be gone. Had a sea cuc die somewhere under the rocks which sent me into another cycle. Didn't lose anything because I did the wc's and amquel/prime etc. Result is still high nitrate months later ranging from 20 after a water change to 40 most of the time, some 80's. Was doing wc's every other to 2 days. Killing me on salt. Was using IO. Started the nopox and a month or so later, the vibrant. Seeing some die off but not enough. Added biodigest/ptim a week ago. Seeing algae turning from dark green to bluish tinge. And water is a bit cloudy so think there is a bacteria bloom maybe from the biodigest. Had some ammonia a couple days ago. Gone today (using stuff to detoxify it). Also at the 6 mo mark and need to find new lights. Hard to find 34 inch blue/whites for the Red Sea tank I have.

 

[Chiefmaster30]

I'm using Brs 2 part solutions

 

[SashimiTurtle]

Red Sea Coral Pro salt and RS foundation powder A and B, premixed liquid C. Tank is a 14g IM Fusion. When first set up with brand new salt water my numbers were:
Ca 500 ppm
KH 11.7dkH
Mg 1600

After two weeks of running SPS frags I'm at
Ca 490ppm
KH 7.8dkH
Mg 1550

The only thing I'm dosing right now is part B and I'm using 8ml per day to hold it at 7.8. My weekly 10% water change is enough to keep Ca and Mg up for now. Being a nano with such a small water volume my alk gets used up pretty quickly.

 

[Scott.h]

@Scott.h The tank is 6 mo old. Used IO salt from beginning and always much lower numbers. Started tracking parameters in April. Alk always low-6-7, mg low 900-1000 and CA 350

April: Had trouble keep alk above 7. Dropped into the 6's even using kent 2 part. mg was running 800's to 1100, mostly in 1000's. Ca 350-410.
May: alk 8-10, mg 1000-1200, starting to hit some 1300's, Ca 350-400,
June: Alk 9-12, mg 1200-1360, ca 400-420
Dosing was either kent 2 part--the nano bottles, or kent individual bottles of mg/ca. And alk reef builder powder. Recently bought RS ABC but didn't start using until my numbers fell more in line (much more expensive so didn't want to use large amts. For a LPS tank, they recommend: 12 (I'm happy with 10), CA 440, mg 1310.

Since getting numbers up in more a normal range, my lps and softs are looking fantastic so they are happy. I just can't keep the numbers there even with weekly or twice week water changes. Changed from IO to Red Sea Reef Pro. Just the last week WC. Am hoping it will help and I can use less dosing. I'm hoping in a few months to have things stable enough to buy a dosing system. In case you can't tell, I'm new and learning!

Test kits: Mg/CA Red sea, Alk had a different one. Don't like it. Am almost out so need to order new kit of some sort. No2/3/ph/NH3 API and Red sea

As to the fancy stuff, I have a Huge algae problem. Don't dare put corals on some rocks. Lost one to algae smothering it, fighting it on my polyps/zoa frag-zoa's might be gone. Had a sea cuc die somewhere under the rocks which sent me into another cycle. Didn't lose anything because I did the wc's and amquel/prime etc. Result is still high nitrate months later ranging from 20 after a water change to 40 most of the time, some 80's. Was doing wc's every other to 2 days. Killing me on salt. Was using IO. Started the nopox and a month or so later, the vibrant. Seeing some die off but not enough. Added biodigest/ptim a week ago. Seeing algae turning from dark green to bluish tinge. And water is a bit cloudy so think there is a bacteria bloom maybe from the biodigest. Had some ammonia a couple days ago. Gone today (using stuff to detoxify it). Also at the 6 mo mark and need to find new lights. Hard to find 34 inch blue/whites for the Red Sea tank I have.

Wow sorry you are going through all that. That must really be frustrating for you. How big is your tank volume, what do you have for filtration, and how much rock? Post a pick if you can. I suspect you have a few different things going on. Personally I wouldn't use the Red Sea pro. ONLY because imo the alk is flat out too high unless you know your stuff. RS blue bucket is what I'd go with instead. (I use something else, but for the most part salt is salt so I use the brand with the lowest alk). So until you get your salinity where it needs to be, then your mg up to 1300 stable, your other parameters will swing. If you do one large water change with RS salt you shouldn't have to manipulate anything up front. But be careful as IO salt and RS pro have extremely different alk levels and would shock the corals.

Regardless of what people do these are the parimeters I go for.

1.026 salt
1300mg
420 cal
Alk 8.0-8-5 one tank, 6.7-7.0 another
No3/po4, they are where're the are, and I adjust things around the number instead of chasing with product. No algae issues, no problems. I add nitrates and phosphate to one system. The other is running great at 38. Your system is new. Bacteria is still growing and you will have algae right now. It will go away.


Lots of people use this. It's cheap and would last you a long time. http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-2-part-calcium-alkalinity-total-package-bulk.html

Not that you can't use the other stuff, it really sounds like you need to simplify things, and cost is a factor.

So there is a cause and reaction for everything that's going on. A sudden change in salt could cause deaths. A bad batch of salt with severely low mg followed by alk swings could cause problems. (Nothing wrong with IO salt either if you test new buckets and know what in it. I always do) Deaths cause nutrient spikes, which cause algae. I can't see what you have here, just thinking. I'm a big advocate in not spending money on fancy labels and spending money unnecessarily. Anything can be achieved with simplicity, husbandry. And water changes. I remember when I was learning at first, every time I walked into the lfs they tried to sell me more stuff. Then the last stuff they sold me created more problems. Just yesterday they tried to sell me ph buffer when I was looking for phosphate additive lol. Ph buffer=alk. Adding alkalinity.. in an ultra low system hence me needing to adding phosphate. She didn't have what I needed, asked my ph, 7.8 and decided my problem is ph, not low po4 at .006. Talk about problems to someone that didn't know better. Raising alk to raise ph instead of adding nutrients would surely kill corals.

So my advice.. clean the tank. Blow off rocks with a powerhead, vacuum the sand really good, don't feed any more then you have to, don't add coral foods at all, and do a few big water changes over the next few weeks. Preferably not with the pro salt unless they are acclimated to high alk now. I say that because your kh will go high and kill some corals most likely. But there is a start. I wouldn't add all those chemicals either. You have to fix the problem, not the symptoms. And be diligent and patient. Hope that helps.

 

[SashimiTurtle]

+1 to what @Scott.h said. RS Coral Pro salt mixed at 1.026 and tested with RS Pro test kits comes out to 500ppm Ca, 12dkH, 1600Mg. It's potent stuff and can cause a big alk swing if you do a big water change with low alk in the tank.

Remember, high Alk needs higher NO3 and PO4. Without food, the corals with burn from the high Alk. Also never go up more than 1.0dkH in one day. A slow fall won't kill corals immediately like a sharp spike upward will. Up and down a bunch will hurt them too. I don't like going up or down more than 0.5 in 24hrs if I can help it. Stability is key. Don't try and chase numbers, but hold them steady at what they are and slowly adjust.

 

[jsker]

Good advice everyone.

 

[Susan Edwards]

@Scott.h I only bought a small qty of the RS salt. My though was if it provided better numbers, I'd dose less. My wc's are approx 8 gal, or approx 15 % ea week. I have a 66 gal Rs Max c250 with 40lbs rock, 60 lbs sand leaving me approx 53 gal tank water. I aim Salinity to be 1.025-26. I went with kent 2 part as a test without having big amts if I wasn't ready for dosing yet. Obviously I am now unless the new salt is more stabilzing. I figure with the small water change amts, it shouldn't be too shocking. So far, seems good. I've had alk in the 8.6-10.9 with some 11 or 12's since June 1st.

Should I be aiming for lower alk? Per Red Sea with LPS, they want me at 12. I'm happy in the 9-10 range

I don't buy any of this from a LFS. I use amazon prime so at least any mistakes are purely mine . As for cleaning tank, I pull algae once or twice a week. Brushing doesn't get rid of much anymore and I use a turkey baster to stir sand. My syphon really doesn't work with the sand. It is either not strong enough for the cyano patches or pulls up too much sand so I use the TB and using my hands to remove what I can. My sand sifter does pretty good.

I feed 2x's as I have 3 anthias and a sun coral. The gonipora also requires food, as well as the colts which I nearly lost as they weren't getting enough (shrinking). I updated my tank build and posted pics of the corals. They have never looked better. RSM c250 66g http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/susans-rsm-250.276718/ last page

@Robin Haselden Alk was in the 9-11 range before I switched to RS Salt. May and June it's been more stable. So far I'm testing daily until I'm confident numbers will stay somewhat steady. drops of 80 in mg is not stable. Right now my no3 ranges from 20-40 or even higher. Reason behind the nopox, vibrant and biodigest products. Phos last I chked was .1

(Stability is key. Don't try and chase numbers, but hold them steady at what they are and slowly adjust.) This is what I'm trying to do. Because I dosed already today will save water change for Monday. For a primarily LPS and softie tank, what are recommended numbers?

Here is a pic, and you can ck my build to see the corals. The 2 colts are doing great, the elgance, great, the gonipora (short stalk) better than it has ever looked. Very extended and happy most of the time. Doesn't close up very often lately. Nice and wavy and fluffy and light looking (as in not dense and heavy), GSP is getting very long and waves like grass now, torch tons of new heads and extends tall, and my favorite, the duncan frag (7 heads plus one new) is fat and fluffy, each head extended and so thick I have a hard time seeing all the heads. Sun coral tissue was orange when I bought it. Yesterday I looked and it is now hot pink. I saw others had hot pink and thought it was a different type. It has at least 30 heads and opens every night to be fed, and sometimes in the morning after I feed. I feed once day.

The tank is happy. My goal is to be able to cut down on daily testing and go weekly and adjust dosages if needed. Sorry my posts are so long. Trying to learn and figure things out

 

[SashimiTurtle]

@Susan Edwards 20-40 NO3 is high. Softies and LPS like "dirty" water but that's nuance algae territory, and I see you have some hair algae on your rocks. I think 5-10ppm NO3 is a good range for a high nutrient softy tank. I think I've looked at your build thread, you have a display refugium hooked into your system? How is that running? It should be growing like crazy with those nutrients. How much and what do you feed a day? NOPOX was successful in growing a bunch of cyano for me, now that I stopped the cyano is going away on its own.

 

[Scott.h]

@Scott.h I only bought a small qty of the RS salt. My though was if it provided better numbers, I'd dose less. My wc's are approx 8 gal, or approx 15 % ea week. I have a 66 gal Rs Max c250 with 40lbs rock, 60 lbs sand leaving me approx 53 gal tank water. I aim Salinity to be 1.025-26. I went with kent 2 part as a test without having big amts if I wasn't ready for dosing yet. Obviously I am now unless the new salt is more stabilzing. I figure with the small water change amts, it shouldn't be too shocking. So far, seems good. I've had alk in the 8.6-10.9 with some 11 or 12's since June 1st.

Should I be aiming for lower alk? Per Red Sea with LPS, they want me at 12. I'm happy in the 9-10 range

I don't buy any of this from a LFS. I use amazon prime so at least any mistakes are purely mine . As for cleaning tank, I pull algae once or twice a week. Brushing doesn't get rid of much anymore and I use a turkey baster to stir sand. My syphon really doesn't work with the sand. It is either not strong enough for the cyano patches or pulls up too much sand so I use the TB and using my hands to remove what I can. My sand sifter does pretty good.

I feed 2x's as I have 3 anthias and a sun coral. The gonipora also requires food, as well as the colts which I nearly lost as they weren't getting enough (shrinking). I updated my tank build and posted pics of the corals. They have never looked better. RSM c250 66g http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/susans-rsm-250.276718/ last page

@Robin Haselden Alk was in the 9-11 range before I switched to RS Salt. May and June it's been more stable. So far I'm testing daily until I'm confident numbers will stay somewhat steady. drops of 80 in mg is not stable. Right now my no3 ranges from 20-40 or even higher. Reason behind the nopox, vibrant and biodigest products. Phos last I chked was .1

(Stability is key. Don't try and chase numbers, but hold them steady at what they are and slowly adjust.) This is what I'm trying to do. Because I dosed already today will save water change for Monday. For a primarily LPS and softie tank, what are recommended numbers?

Here is a pic, and you can ck my build to see the corals. The 2 colts are doing great, the elgance, great, the gonipora (short stalk) better than it has ever looked. Very extended and happy most of the time. Doesn't close up very often lately. Nice and wavy and fluffy and light looking (as in not dense and heavy), GSP is getting very long and waves like grass now, torch tons of new heads and extends tall, and my favorite, the duncan frag (7 heads plus one new) is fat and fluffy, each head extended and so thick I have a hard time seeing all the heads. Sun coral tissue was orange when I bought it. Yesterday I looked and it is now hot pink. I saw others had hot pink and thought it was a different type. It has at least 30 heads and opens every night to be fed, and sometimes in the morning after I feed. I feed once day.

The tank is happy. My goal is to be able to cut down on daily testing and go weekly and adjust dosages if needed. Sorry my posts are so long. Trying to learn and figure things out

I skimmed through the build thread. The algae is just a result of using the new dry rock and adding so much so fast. Algae has to grow to compensate for lack of bacteria, or because of the bio load. My last build (I have 3) was started in October, ran empty until December cycling. Then I took down a frag tank, adding my filtration media as well as some live rock to it. 90% dry rock in the display. Time frame I can relate to the ugly phase. No algae but the rocks won't be mature for awhile.

Just stick with a salt that suits you. If you could open up your rock work with some flow that might help too. It might eliminate detritus being trapped also. At this point you shouldn't need to dose anything if you do a 2 or 3 bucket a week water change. You may need that for export until things stabilize. You don't want swings in parameters, especially alk. 8 is fine, 9 is fine as long as other parameters are there to support it, but more importantly keeping it the same. Mine doesn't fluctuate .2 day or night. If it did I'd expect my sps corals to show me.

 

[Susan Edwards]

@Scott.h great advice and thank you. Maybe I'll try doing 2-3 water changes per week, but very small ones that would equal the 10-15 percent weeklys and see what that does. As for the rockwork, it's pretty much stuck unless I tear it apart as the top layers are cemented in places to keep them stable. There are lots of swim thrus at least. Even the cavern has a "back door" and the main rock has 4 areas for water to flow thru. If I ever set up a larger tank (yes, I want very much too), I will put what I've learned 1) no caverns that I cannot see into to see who is in there and how they are doing, 2) leave more open sand area, 3) take a bit more time <g>

@Robin Haselden I have lots of algae although I think it's starting to fade. I'm aiming for nitrate of 5. I'd settle for 10 with the idea of working it down. The display refugium is not hooked in yet. Hoping a handyman I've used who has had saltwater tanks, and has done built ins will do this for me. The display had a cyano outbreak, more than one. Last chemi clean took care of it. Has algae but not anywhere as bad as my main tank. Mostly on the macro algae. I put in a large emerald and though he is eating some of the good stuff, he's eating a lot of bad. I put some of the macro in suckion shower baskets higher up to keep him away. Need to pull each pc out and pull algae. Don't test that tank as often and am not worrying about numbers. Has a cuc and 3 damsels to help feed the good bacteria. One reason I'm trying to get the main tank stable is for when I plumb the other tank in.

Maybe the nopox adds to my cyano but I'll keep at it. Just chemicleaned both tanks. I feed 2x's a day for the anthias. Discovered that after lights are out, I can put a tiny bit of food in for them, and if the sun coral isn't "awake" it opens right up. Then I shut pumps and feed the sun. The tang is the only other fish active during lights out so I don't feed as much. Rest of fish can do with 1 time a day. Also going to use selcom maybe 2 x's a week in food to see if that helps. Been using it every day for the new anthias, the sun coral and the gonipora. Think I can cut it back. Thanks for your suggestions and insight as well.