Dosing Kalk methods??

[m.kristoff]

I'm trying to figure out the best method to dose kalk
currently I have a Reef Octo Kalk stirrer. I have it set to mix every hour for 5 minutes. I am using a DOS to push 2800ML per day. I am evaporating about 1.5 gallons per day. My DHK is steady between 9.3 - 9.6 measured with my Alkatronic. My PH has never gotten higher than 8.1 and only for a short time.

The ACI Aquaculture method is to dose it at night only. like 5600ml's! Looks like they use a steady drip all night until the lights come on. they have a PH rule in place to kill the DOS if it exceeds 8.29. This will over fill my sump at night and then level back out during the day. I Can do that since my skimmer is external and not effected by sump levels. They said that doing it this way my ATO would pretty much never run.


I am dosing 24 hours- but not getting the desired effect. Is there a better way to do this?

FYI: I use tropic Marin which has a DKH of 9.

 

[HuduVudu]

If the desired effect is to raise your pH. Then you need to know what your room CO2 levels are. Just adding kalk when those levels are high is self defeating.

 

[m.kristoff]

If the desired effect is to raise your pH. Then you need to know what your room CO2 levels are. Just adding kalk when those levels are high is self defeating.

I have a CO2 meter and it about 422 in my sump room and mid 500's where the tank is. I get CO2 Levels but I understand that Kalk will dissipate CO2 in the water. I'm not sure if dissipate is the correct term, but understand that kalk reduces it

 

[reefkeeper2]

I also have a kalk stirrer, but I know that's not the best way to dose. The most efficient ( but inconvenient) way is to use a larger container, fill with RO/DI, then add enough calcium hydroxide to bring to saturation. Cap the container and then dose until the container is empty. Do not stir. Rinse out and repeat. This pretty much ensures your using saturated kalk all the time. Kalk in the stirrers slowly lose saturation because the constant stirring and adding of water (which contains CO2) makes some of the solution precipitate out as calcium carbonate. I think once that happens it makes it easier for that reaction to occur even when you add more kalk, but I'm not sure of that. Just an observation and why I think the stirrer works so much better after you clean it out.
Like I said I also have a kalk stirrer but it's more because of convenience. All my ATO passes thru it. I'm thinking of trying the bucket method above to see if it makes a significant difference. I know there is a big bump in my pH every time I clean out the stirrer. Just adding more kalk doesn't have the same effect.

 

[arking_mark]

If your Alkalinity is 9 and your air CO2 is roughly 500, your pH should be around 8.2.

Since your pH never exceeds 8.1, you either have measurement issue or a tank aeration issue assuming your not dosing something that is lowering your pH.

You can do a simple cup aeration test with outdoor air to test your pH meter. Take a cup of tank water and aerate it with an airstone for an hour and then measure its pH. If your measurement is not roughly 8.3, you have a meter problem.

Just to be clear, our hobby grade meters aren't the most accurate so your 8.1 readings may be within the meters error range...many of which are +/- 0.2 for pH.

 

[HuduVudu]

I have a CO2 meter and it about 422 in my sump room and mid 500's where the tank is. I get CO2 Levels but I understand that Kalk will dissipate CO2 in the water. I'm not sure if dissipate is the correct term, but understand that kalk reduces it

CO2 ends up being carbonic acid in the water. Kalk is a base. Acid + Base = Water.

@arking_mark looks like he has the calculation for CO2 in the air. There is another source of CO2 and that is fish respiration. If your tank is "overstocked" then the tank will build up CO2. The best way to push the CO2 down is as @arking_mark suggested ... ensure that you have proper gas exchange. This will provide equilibrium with the CO2 outside of the tank. If you have proper gas exchange and you want the amount of CO2 to go down then may need to remove fish to achieve your goal. I think at that point though you would just be chasing numbers.

EDIT: We got down the CO2 rabbit hole but there is another significant source of acid in your tank. Once again to do with fish load. That is conversion of NH3/NH4 to NO3 ... This will drag down your pH if there is a lot of food being eaten and/or breaking down in your tank.

 

[m.kristoff]

I'm thinking of trying the bucket method

I am also looking at that as well. My Kalk stirrer has an o ring to seal it, but I cant do anything about the CO2 in the RO water coming in.

 

[m.kristoff]

CO2 ends up being carbonic acid in the water. Kalk is a base. Acid + Base = Water.

@arking_mark looks like he has the calculation for CO2 in the air. There is another source of CO2 and that is fish respiration. If your tank is "overstocked" then the tank will build up CO2. The best way to push the CO2 down is as @arking_mark suggested ... ensure that you have proper gas exchange. This will provide equilibrium with the CO2 outside of the tank. If you have proper gas exchange and you want the amount of CO2 to go down then may need to remove fish to achieve your goal. I think at that point though you would just be chasing numbers.

EDIT: We got down the CO2 rabbit hole but there is another significant source of acid in your tank. Once again to do with fish load. That is conversion of NH3/NH4 to NO3 ... This will drag down your pH if there is a lot of food being eaten and/or breaking down in your tank.

I only have 5 fish. 2 tangs which are small, a diamond goby, 1 chromis and a small goby I can't remember the name of. so I have a very low fish load in a 155 with a water volume of around 165 -170. The tank is new, almost 3 months old. I have a bunch of euphyllia, 2 large duncan colonies and an anemone. they are all happy and actually look really good. Coralline algae is growing.

I have a MP40 providing surface agitation. I also have a vent fan above the tank when the humidity level rises. I also have a Reef Octo External skimmer that draws a ton of air- love this skimmer!

My lighting period is from 10 am to 10pm with a 30-minute ramp up/down.

Rock was a combination of Marco and old live rock that was pressure washed and cured in bleached. I did add a small cycled live rock to kick it off. I also added Microbactor 7 to start the tank.

My overnight test for my Alkatronic shows that the PH held at 8 . My apex is saying 7.98 so not bad with the lights off. I did increase my Kalk dosing to 3100ML yesterday. I hope to see an increase when the lights come on.

The ACI method is to dose overnight only and filling the sump to a higher level. this prevents the ATO from running and relies on evaporation. I am in Ohio so that will change. Matter of fact, it is 35 degrees this morning and expect to hit 70 today so.

 

[m.kristoff]

Just to be clear, out hobby grade meters aren't the most accurate so your 8.1 readings may be within the meters error range...many of which are +/- 0.2 for pH

I think the Alkatronic is lab grade PH probe??? my Apex is pretty close to the same, so I have a good ballpark. I am dosing 20ml per day of Mag which was around the 1190 - 1200 range. the 20ml per day is probably not doing much. that range was from my old Trident that I had 0 trust in. I would not be surprised if that is still low. Other than that, it's just kalkawasser.

 

[arking_mark]

I am also looking at that as well. My Kalk stirrer has an o ring to seal it, but I cant do anything about the CO2 in the RO water coming in.

Before trying other things...consider validating that you don't have a meter or aeration issue.

 

[m.kristoff]

Before trying other things...consider validating that you don't have a meter or aeration issue.

I have 3 PH probes Apex, Alkatronic and a hanna handheld. the hanna reads a little higher, but the Apex and Alkatroninc are within .2 of each other.

 

[arking_mark]

I have 3 PH probes Apex, Alkatronic and a hanna handheld. the hanna reads a little higher, but the Apex and Alkatroninc are within .2 of each other.

If you believe your probes and have 500ish air CO2 and your readings are below 8.2, you have an aeration issue.

You can validate this with a cup aeration test next to your tank. Simply aerate tank water with an airstone next to your tank for an hour and measure pH. If it goes to the expected 8.2ish...tank needs more aeration.

 

[m.kristoff]

If you believe your probes and have 500ish air CO2 and your readings are below 8.2, you have an aeration issue.

You can validate this with a cup aeration test next to your tank. Simply aerate tank water with an airstone next to your tank for an hour and measure pH. If it goes to the expected 8.2ish...tank needs more aeration.

ill give it a try, It could be 8.2.. even with all 3 probes, its just an average so..

 

[Rjramos]

I just started an avast kalk stirrer on Monday, with a Kamoer X1 running continuously 24hrs. Initially started at 4.0mL/min, now backed to 2.5mL/min. When I did my evaporation calculation over 24hr period. I ended up with 1.5 gal or around 6000mL’s. Of this amount, I chose to push 90% of top off through the stirrer. I noticed that the level in the sump was going up above full mark. This is probably due to increase in evaporation when sump levels are low during 24 hr calculation. So, I backed it down, 1st to 3mL/min for 24 hrs, and then further to 2.5mL/min. Don’t want to be above the mark, and if I’m under the ATO can add the rest. I have an external skimmer on the system but it has been off for almost a year now. I do have a large refugium with mud and chaeto, lit reverse from display lights. I will be monitoring pH, and alkalinity frequently to tweak things right. The 2 part I was dosing twice/daily has been cut to 50%. I have not monitored room CO2, or ran a scrubber since skimmer is not running. Initial pH was averaging around 8.0 during the day, but before I was able to check it at night, the probe stopped working, and currently waiting for a new one from Milwaukee. I will chime in here to share how this goes.

 

[nereefpat]

Kalk should be dosed based on alkalinity consumption, not on pH.

My DHK is steady between 9.3 - 9.6 measured with my Alkatronic. My PH has never gotten higher than 8.1 and only for a short time.

I would check alk with a titration kit, like a Salifert. If it is about 9.5 dKH, then I would keep your kalk dosing the same...assuming you aren't dosing alk another way. More kalk will increase alk, in case you didn't know.

 

[m.kristoff]

Kalk should be dosed based on alkalinity consumption, not on pH.

I would check alk with a titration kit, like a Salifert. If it is about 9.5 dKH, then I would keep your kalk dosing the same...assuming you aren't dosing alk another way. More kalk will increase alk, in case you didn't know.

I disagree, it can be for either. A lot of people run Kalk to help with their PH when running a calcium rector. Regardless. I use a Hanna to test DKH and it lines up with my Alkatronic which I believe is giving me a correct value. It is steady between 9.3 and 9.6. I use tropic Marin salt which is 9dkh.

like anything else in this hobby, its all opinion ,PH is not important or PH is important. DKH is most important, ect! What I do find to be true is Kalk has been around for a very long time and has a proven track record. I also buy in that elevated PH help's with growth

I have tested with salifert and I get a consistent 10+. Considering for human error reading the color, it is probably about the same.

I have been dosing Kalk for a little bit over a month now and my DKH has been stable. My alkatronic As of last test- 11am , my PH has been steady at 8. lights have been on for just over an hour

 

[HuduVudu]

The tank is new, almost 3 months old.

This is the first issue. You are breaking down aerobicly only. Everything. That means you hare going to get pH depression. This has been around for a very long time.

What I do find to be true is Kalk has been around for a very long time and has a proven track record.

LOL yes it ihas been around for a long time and it's proven track record is for dealing with alk. It is relatively recently that it has been used for pH control.

I also buy in that elevated PH help's with growth

Then find people that get elevated pH. Talk to them. You will have to work to find them and you will need to understand the "rules" when you talk to them. Otherwise they will blow you off, because they really don't want to deal with people that don't understand. Explaining things a thousand times to person that doesn't want to understand gets old.

Kalk isn't the only factor that I have seen people that buy into this method. There is many more things that they will try. Much of it centers around REALLY understanding the acid base chemistry and where you are getting each from in the tank.

This tank is 3 months old. If it is your first or second tank (no idea of your time in hobby) then you need to take a more DIY approach and figure things out yourself. Problem solving is the first thing that you need to get under your belt before you can really start to experiment.

like anything else in this hobby, its all opinion ,PH is not important or PH is important.

Here is the rub, you are not asking for information, you are stating your opinion. Most people will not care unless there are pics of acro growing wildly accompaning that opinion. Best to ask for information and take what you can get than to try and argue opinion with other people.

You have literally shot down every person that is trying to provide information. At this point I think that you should reconsider asking for outside help on what is essentially your opinion about how things work.

This hobby is VERY frustrating for those that think that you can just slam something together and watch a thousand YouTube videos and read a billion forum posts. They very rarely find success. Much of what is know or has been done is done by people that tinker. The sad/hilarious part is that other people come along and twist what they did for their own ends. Very rarely this MIGHT produce something new, odds are that it won't. Even it does it is usually for niche stuff. I have done something like this and got ripped apart for it. You have to except this reality or go mad trying to do everything different without understanding what the "rules" are. Trust me they are obtuse.

 

[RobB'z Reef]

I'm trying to figure out the best method to dose kalk
currently I have a Reef Octo Kalk stirrer. I have it set to mix every hour for 5 minutes. I am using a DOS to push 2800ML per day. I am evaporating about 1.5 gallons per day. My DHK is steady between 9.3 - 9.6 measured with my Alkatronic. My PH has never gotten higher than 8.1 and only for a short time.

The ACI Aquaculture method is to dose it at night only. like 5600ml's! Looks like they use a steady drip all night until the lights come on. they have a PH rule in place to kill the DOS if it exceeds 8.29. This will over fill my sump at night and then level back out during the day. I Can do that since my skimmer is external and not effected by sump levels. They said that doing it this way my ATO would pretty much never run.


I am dosing 24 hours- but not getting the desired effect. Is there a better way to do this?

FYI: I use tropic Marin which has a DKH of 9.

take what those guys are pimping with a grain of salt, in no way are they a blanket method that will work across the board for everyone. They often fail to disclose the level of details in exactly 'WHY' this is getting them the results it is and often addresses variables only applicable to them. Better to research the fundamentals yourself to get a true solid grasp on how to address your goals for your tank. Often the recipe will vary for you, but there is always a path.

 

[nereefpat]

I disagree, it can be for either.

It's not really a debate. Adding kalk equals dosing alkalinity. There are also pH benefits to it.

Regardless. I use a Hanna to test DKH and it lines up with my Alkatronic which I believe is giving me a correct value.

It's good that you checked alk with a Salifert kit. Are you dosing 2-part with the Alkatronic? You also mentioned a calcium reactor. Or are you only using kalk for Alk and Ca?

What I do find to be true is Kalk has been around for a very long time and has a proven track record. I also buy in that elevated PH help's with growth

Yep, kalk has been around for a long time and is great. It is an alk supplement, though. It's mostly all I use for alk. I agree that higher pH should make stony corals grow faster, if that's what you want. But I wouldn't go much higher alk than you are already running.

I have been dosing Kalk for a little bit over a month now and my DKH has been stable.

Good. If you want to try adding more kalk, great. But don't overshoot your alkalinity.

 

[arking_mark]

Yes. You could use Kalkwasser to regulate pH. But let's walk through what may happen if you do.

Using a pH probe, I add Kalkwasser every time my pH falls below my target.

Scenario 1:
- kalk dosing is less than tank evaporation
- Alk/Ca consumption matches kalk dosing
Results: great stability hitting target Alk/Ca/pH/salinity

Scenario 2:
- kalk dosing exceeds tank evaporation rate
- Alk/Ca consumption matches kalk dosing
Results: unstable salinity and possible flood from tank

Scenario 3:
- kalk dosing is less than tank evaporation
- Alk/Ca consumption is greater than kalk dosing
Results: declining Alk/Ca, stable pH and salinity

Scenario 4:
- kalk dosing is less than tank evaporation
- Alk/Ca consumption is less than kalk dosing
Results: potential Alk/Ca spike, and stable pH and salinity

Scenario 5:
- kalk dosing is greater than tank evaporation
- Alk/Ca consumption is less/greater than kalk dosing
Results: potential Alk/Ca spike, unstable salinity, possible flood, and stable pH

Using kalk to regulate pH results in Scenario 1 only if you're lucky.

All other scenario results are bad.

...and yes you can put in controls to prevent flooding, overdosing/underdosing Alk/Ca...but then you wouldn't have stable pH.

Lessons learned in trying to maintain pH stability

For those interested in maintaining pH stability around +/- 0.05 I have a couple of lessons learned. These are things that I found out on my journey to pH stability. Prior to seeking pH stability my tank pH was consistently around ~7.9. However, much of this journey went on before the tank was...

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