Dosing KNO3 and KPO4

.AcroKiller. · Oct 12, 2016

I just did a tank swap and I have some nice size colonies and a lot of acros well the tank has been going through some sort of brown algae and acro have been going pale and stning.

I've been testing nitrates with Red Sea and getting 0 and phosphorous with Hana ULR and getting 0 and for 2 weeks nothing's has changed so I came across this site after talking to two experience reefers Cruz Arias and @glennf and they recommended to dose nitrates and phosphates.

http://buddendo.home.xs4all.nl/aquarium/redfield_eng.htm#inhoud

So last night I started dosing both and got reading of both to show up and this morning phosphates are back to 0 but nitrates remain the same so I'm going to continue to dose phoshates and nitrates to keep a Reading of
.75 nitrates and .07 phosphates which will give me a ratio of 16 to see if I can beat the acros paling and stning and hopefully combat this brown crap.

Any inputs??

.AcroKiller. · Oct 12, 2016

@Cruz_Arias

Cruz_Arias · Oct 12, 2016

During this KPO4 And KNO3 dosing, discontinue any other potassium dosing such as Lugols (Potassium Iodide), Potassium Chloride, or Bromide Pro (Potassium Bromide)

The membrane sodium/potassium gates will affect membrane osmosis. Which could be detrimental to respiration in marine inverts.

If you have duncans, they are typically our "canary in the coal mine" for indication of a potassium over dose... the duncans will start to pull in to increase its internal osmotic pressure.

.AcroKiller. · Oct 12, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
During this KPO4 And KNO3 dosing, discontinue any other potassium dosing such as Lugols (Potassium Iodide), Potassium Chloride, or Bromide Pro (Potassium Bromide)

The membrane sodium/potassium gates will affect membrane osmosis. Which could be detrimental to respiration in marine inverts.

If you have duncans, they are typically our "canary in the coal mine" for indication of a potassium over dose... the duncans will start to pull in to increase its internal osmotic pressure.

Thanks man.

Cruz_Arias · Oct 12, 2016

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na+/K+-ATPase

Here is the sodium-potassium pump theorized in osmotic balance.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 12, 2016

0.07 ppm phosphate is fairly high. How did you decide on that level?

IMO, the ratio is relatively unimportant. It is just the absolute values of each and whether it is limiting for any particular organism. Chemicals certainly do not need to be, and rarely are, present in the water at the ratio they are being used.

Calcium and alkalinity are a perfect example. They are used at about 7 ppm calcium for each 1 dKH of alkalinity, but natural seawater has about 60 ppm calcium for each 1 dKH of alkalinity.

.AcroKiller. · Oct 12, 2016

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
0.07 ppm phosphate is fairly high. How did you decide on that level?

IMO, the ratio is relatively unimportant. It is just the absolute values of each and whether it is limiting for any particular organism. Chemicals certainly do not need to be, and rarely are, present in the water at the ratio they are being used.

Calcium and alkalinity are a perfect example. They are used at about 7 ppm calcium for each 1 dKH of alkalinity, but natural seawater has about 60 ppm calcium for each 1 dKH of alkalinity.

I came up with .07 because it matches with the target nitrate reading I'm shooting for which will give me a ration of 16. I have kept an sps tank with 0 phoshates and I experience nothing but trouble.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 12, 2016

iiluisii said:
I came up with .07 because it matches with the target nitrate reading I'm shooting for which will give me a ration of 16. I have kept an sps tank with 0 phoshates and I experience nothing but trouble.

OK, I just think that the ratio in the water is not important. It seems to be a misinterpretation of the Redfield ratio, which is a ratio phytoplankton uses, not what they "want" or "need" as a ratio in the water.

.AcroKiller. · Oct 12, 2016

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
OK, I just think that the ratio in the water is not important. It seems to be a misinterpretation of the Redfield ratio, which is a ratio phytoplankton uses, not what they "want" or "need" as a ratio in the water.

Randy every time the ratio is off I have experienced Cyano. Anytime you have measurable nitrates and no mesh arable phosphates Cyano thrives.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 12, 2016

iiluisii said:
Randy every time the ratio is off I have experienced Cyano. Anytime you have measurable nitrates and no mesh arable phosphates Cyano thrives.

If the only thing that happened is phosphate went up, that couldn't possibly (IMO) deter cyano relative to lower levels of phosphate. It is possible that in your tank, more phosphate means more growth of something else that is consuming some third required element (e.g., iron, copper, etc.) or taking up the space where the cyano would have grown. More often, hoqwever, I think folks will reduce a cyano problem by sufficiently decreasing phosphate.

Cruz_Arias · Oct 12, 2016

What we "need" for our corals is still speculation based on only the things we can test and our, still limited knowledge, of what we understand is happening with the biochemical metabolism of corals and other microbial organisms.

There has been many "rules" in the hobby that have changed as we understood chemistry further and equipment has improved in consistency and accuracy.

Many of the reefers I've had the pleasure of reefing with, also have noted similar effects by dosing one (NO3/PO4) to lower the other.

The supposition is if one "nutrient" is zeroed, that nutrient is the limiting factor in reducing the other.

Especially while using the aerobic bacteria method to reduce overall nutrient levels by skimmate export...

Cruz_Arias · Oct 12, 2016

We've found reducing both available nitrates and phosphates conjunctively, as well as decreasing CO2 and other metabolic waste gases in the water column, will help prevent cyano outbreaks.

Efficient nutrient export, we believe, is key to deprive nuisance algaes and cyano bacteria of the necessary building blocks to become invasive and a burden on the reef system.

recess62 · Oct 12, 2016

So a questio. My nitrates are running around 10. I am using biopellets and macro but cannot get the nitrate down. My phosphate is 0 with Hanna low checker. I run no other phosphate export methods. Is my low phosphate a limiting factor in my attempts to reduce my nitrates?

Cruz_Arias · Oct 12, 2016

We use Seachem's N-P-K for planted tanks...

We would dose the 0'd nutrient PO4 or NO3 a few mL a day, as well as double dosing Dr. Tims One and Only aerobic bacteria to the system and really aerating the system with fresh air... or co2 scrubbed air...

Keep dosing the limiting "nutrient" element daily and test test test.

If you dump too much of the missing nutrient all at once, you can initiate a huge algal bloom... you just want to dose what the bacteria can utilize.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 12, 2016

recess62 said:
So a questio. My nitrates are running around 10. I am using biopellets and macro but cannot get the nitrate down. My phosphate is 0 with Hanna low checker. I run no other phosphate export methods. Is my low phosphate a limiting factor in my attempts to reduce my nitrates?

It might be, or not. It is not clear what zero means in most cases (since it isn't truly "0"), but dosing some phosphate is an OK plan to test the idea.

.AcroKiller. · Oct 12, 2016

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
It might be, or not. It is not clear what zero means in most cases (since it isn't truly "0"), but dosing some phosphate is an OK plan to test the idea.

So if this an idea. How come people have already experience the reduction of phosphates when ever they add nitrates on a nitrates deprived system? We are getting a bit out of topic here but it's all good because both topics a great and I would love to Hear some inputs for both.

In reality I think the days of keeping a ulns tank are fading away seeing the impacts others have with higher nutrient tanks. I know that for ages people tried to keep tanks without nutrients at the beginning because there's nothing consuming nutrients but algae. But tanks that are loaded with corals require nutrients because they do the majority of nutrients consumption in the tank.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 12, 2016

iiluisii said:
So if this an idea. How come people have already experience the reduction of phosphates when ever they add nitrates on a nitrates deprived system? We are getting a bit out of topic here but it's all good because both topics a great and I would love to Hear some inputs for both.

That is common and makes perfect sense if the growth of something is being limited by available N (e.g., nitrate). Add it, removing the limitation, and it grows more, taking up more phosphate and hence reducing phosphate.

recess62 · Oct 12, 2016

So Randy if I add phosphate it might help reduce my nitrate? If so how much to start and what type ?

Griff · Oct 12, 2016

Following along.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Oct 12, 2016

recess62 said:
So Randy if I add phosphate it might help reduce my nitrate? If so how much to start and what type ?

It only does if low phosphate is limiting the growth or bacteria or other organisms that are using both. Food grade sodium phosphate is a good choice:

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swan...=80480685127&gclid=CJyjnNuN1s8CFcxkhgodw_wEQg

There are also some hobby brands, such as Brightwell neophos. I'd dose to 0.02 ppm or so and see what happens.