Dosing system set up questions. Salifert KH & pH Buffer as Alk?

[Tobe71]

Hey there!

First time poster, so be gentle....

I just acquired the Vertex Libra Dosing System (the stepper model) with the super cool Vertex Vessels (dosing containers)...

Here's my question.

I have a brand new container of the Salifert KH & pH Buffer (powder) and want to mix it with some RO/DI Water and use it as part of a Two Part dosing set up...

The Calcium portion would be the Salifert Coral Calcium which is already a liquid.

I was hoping that maybe someone else had already done this and done the math on making up a solution, what concentrations and the proper dosing amounts for a specific Alk increase?

I also have some Brightwell Kalk +2. Would it be better to just dose this and forget the two part? or in addition to the two part? I really have no idea which way to proceed...

Any and all input is GREATLY appreciated.

I have always just done water changes in the past and periodically added Calcium supplements as needed. My coral load has increased significantly (mostly LPS - Chalices, Acans, Favia) and I'm looking to add some Acros / SPS very soon, so I'd like to get this dialed in correctly...


Anybody wanna help me out with my first time using a dosing system?

Thank You!!!

PS here are the instructions on the supplements I want to use up (I know there are cheaper supplements for the long run, but I just want to start with these)

The Calcium is already a liquid... from the bottle : "Every 5ml per 100 liters (25 gallons) will increase Calcium Concentration by approx. 8mg/L (8ppm)

The Salifert KH + pH Buffer is a powder.... from the conatiner: "Every 10ml powder per 25 gallons will approximately increase the alkalinity by 1.2 meq/L."

I haven't received the Brightwell Kalk +2 yet, so I don't know the dosing instructions on that one....

Thanks again!

 

[ritter6788]

I haven't used the products you listed and I don't recommend using them. Any alkalinity buffers that boost pH also contain Borate which may (or may not) have negative effects on your tank. I lean towards the "if it's not needed don't add it" rule. Plain old baking soda or baked baking soda (soda ash) to boost pH a bit is perfect for raising or maintaining alkalinity.

I recommended using the calculators at bulkreefsupply.com for staring points for dosing. The only true way to tell for sure is to start dosing slow and test often (daily) until you gy a routine down and figure out what to dose for your tank. Even once you get it locked in I recommend testing at least once a week to keep up with your usage and adjust ad needed.

If you decide to go the kalkwasser route the brightwell product you mentioned is no better than regular Mrs. Wages pickling lime you can get from the store. That's another topic and we can get into that as well if you decide kalk is the route to take.

Either way there are a few ways to go about dosing and good luck with which ever you decide.

Welcome to R2R.

 

[Tobe71]

Thanks for the info, but I'd really like to use these up since I paid for them and then maybe go to a more cost effective supplement regiment... and from what I've read, these are good products...

anyone else wanna help with the math?

 

[Tobe71]

Figured it out.... My dosing vessels are 2500ml

For the calcium, set up a spreadsheet as follows:

Desired Weekly increase in ppm

Volume of system in ml

Max daily increase (desired weekly increase/7)

Increase per 1ml dose (assuming 1ml/hour) (Max daily increase/24)

Total Increase in ppm if entire vessel is used (Increase per 1ml dose*2500)

Units of Salifert Coral Calcium tp attain desire concentration (Total increase in ppm... /160000*volume of system in ml)

This will yield the amount the of supplement to add to your vessel...

any vessel size can be substituted by adding the additional columns

Total Solution (enter vessel size in ml)

Units of RO/DO water (Total solution - Units of Coral Calcium)

substitute new vessel size in equation above for "total increase in ppm if entire vessel is used"...

For Alkalinity, set up a spreadsheet as follows:

Desired Weekly increase in dKH

Volume of system in ml

Max daily increase (desired weekly increase/7)

Increase per 1ml dose (assuming 1ml/hour) (Max daily increase/24)

Total Increase in dKH if entire vessel is used (Increase per 1ml dose*2500)

Units of Salifert KH + pH Buffer to attain desire concentration (Total increase in dKH... /33600*volume of system in ml)

This will yield the amount the of supplement to add to your vessel...

any vessel size can be substituted by adding the additional columns

Total Solution (enter vessel size in ml)

Units of RO/DO water (Total solution - Units of Salifert KH + pH Buffer)

substitute new vessel size in equation above for "total increase in ppm if entire vessel is used"...

These seem to work forward and backward but feel free to check my math and please let me know if you find an error!

Hope this is helpful if anyone is trying the same thing or something similar...

peace

PS I'll post some photos of the spreadsheet shortly...

 

[Tobe71]

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/members/tobe71-albums-salifert-spreadsheet.html

There are a couple columns that i didn't mention in my description....

White cells are where you would enter data, everything else is formulaic...

I don't know how to share the spreadsheet online so if you want a copy, private message me...

peace

 

[mcarroll]

I'm not sure the story about pH and Borates is as true or clear as presented. Even washing soda raises pH. There are one or two manufacturers of note who have products known to contain borate salts, and they are on the ingredients list at the reputable one, so not particularly secret. (Which coincidentally is the buffer product I used very successfully for the first few years of my SPS reef.) But more than anything, Salifert claims their buffer has no borates, and they even talk in the instructions about a possibility of 24 hours of pH depression, as if it may even just be baking soda (or a majority baking soda). (Which is all good.)

I see no harm in using these reagents up, along with water changes. BRS's calculator is specific to their products, which is fine (good place, good products, good prices), but the "mother" Reef Calculator will give you dosing advice on many makes of reagent, including DIY, and including the Salifert products being used here.

The advice to start off dosing slow and testing very often - at least daily to begin with IMO (too) - is dead-on. Usually within a week or so you'll figure out the rate your tank is consuming and you'll know soon after when you'll be ok relaxing into a "just daily" routine, then weekly, etc... Any time there is a major change to the stony coral "load on the tank", such as major fragging, adding several new frags or colonies, major die-off, etc, you'll go through a mini-repeat of that cycle to readjust your dosing accordingly. (I wouldn't recommend taking on many stony corals if this doesn't sound appealing. )

I historically have also agreed on the Kalk+2, that the R.H.-Farley-net-wisdom is gospel and that this is no different than Mrs. Wages. (Google for the R.H.-Farley reference on Kalk+2 if interested...shouldn't be hard to find.) The fact is, however, that there is such a thing as high magnesium lime as well as other forms of lime than what we are all familiar with. I don't remember anyone claiming to have tested to see what kind of lime they are using up in Pennsylvania at Brightwell. I do remember a claim that even Mrs. Wages has trace amounts of magnesium, but that it wasn't reasonable to expect it to get into solution for dosing. Again, I don't remember this being tested....and in practice a lot of people dose their kalk with vinegar. What then? I'm not sure this issue of some possible advantage or bonus (getting Mg with your Ca and alk) to using Kalk+2 - or even regular lime plus vinegar - is as settled as it seems. (I seem to remember the discussion on Hanna Alk testers following a similar arc when they were new on the scene.) What is for-sure is that you will pay a little more per pound for the Brightwell than for most other brands. When you consider how long a pound will last you (and depending how easy alternatives are to be found....e.g. pickling lime is not sold in any stores around me for some reason), it may or may not be enough difference to be worth haggling over.

There are a lot of good strategies for employing kalk. I recommend using kalk to cut down on your two part costs. Once you decide you're spending more than you'd like on two part chemicals, you can fire up a kalk reactor like a TLF KW300 or (my fav) a Tunze 5074 in the output of your top-off system. Load a few teaspoons of lime per month in the reactor, optionally load vinegar into the RO water, and you're set! Recalibrate your two-part schedule accordingly. (And I do recommend one of the above kalk reactors or a DIY one of similar design. The simpler the better, which is why I favor the Tunze model.) Eventually you'll probably want to switch to DIY reagents for at least one of your two parts to save more money, but I wouldn't rush it - there's plenty of time.

I hope this helps!

-Matt

P.S. For instructions, the only key info you really need is the x grams will raise 1 gallon by z ppms from the label and your test results. If you want you can crutch with the Reef Calculator noted above (which is awesome!), but with practice the math is doable on the fly. E.g. You test a 50 gallon system at 7 dKH and want 12 dKH - that'll take 29.7 mL of powder. Dissolve that in however much water it takes to dose without precipitating (at least what the directions call for) and dose it all - slowly enough not to cause precipitation. (Watch for clouding where the alk hits your saltwater.)

 

[Tobe71]

Thanks for all the info. Matt! Much appreciated!

 

[Tobe71]

DO NOT USE THE SPREADSHEET I OUTLINED.... It's all jacked up! doh!

That's what I get trying to do all of that super sleep deprived and hopped up on cold medicine!

I've corrected it anf will post the changes soon...

If anyone is interested in a copy of the corrected spreadsheet, PM me...