Dry Rock dry sand cycling. Advice needed.

[Neil S.]

Although my initial decision was to go with Live Rock and Live Sand, I am seriously examining using Dry Rock and dry sand. I have three reasons for this:
1) Economics, the cost is less than 1/2 what LR and LS would cost (very close to about 40%)
2) Control! Going this route would minimize the risk of getting undesirables into the system.
3) Aquascaping is MUCH easier

Luckily I am still in the build stages so I have the luxury of making decisions like this.

My system:
23 Gallon Fluval Vista (bowfront). 29" length x 9.5" wide x 17" height.
Fluval 206 Filter
(Mechanical Filtration [Coarse foam, Med foam, filter floss] => Chemical media [Matrix Carbon, Purigen] => Bio Media [Matrix])
NOTE: Purigen will not go in until after the cycle has completed.
Custom Plumbing for the intake and return hosing, including drain valving.
Kessil A80 LED (custom wing reflectors)
Eheim Jager 100W heater.
Screen Lid made from plastic mesh, 1cm square.

Questions:

1) Cycling. Planning on using Seachem Stability to seed the bacteria. Dose with Dr. Tims ammonia chloride @2ppm, to provide food for the bacteria. Here is the question -- Do I continue to dose the ammonia throughout the cycle, or just the once at the start, or some other dosing schedule? (Seachem has a dosing schedule that goes for 7 days.)

1a) Should ghost feeding be done at some point in the cycling? If so approximately when?

2) Do I need to put any form of glass protector on the bottom? (say a 1cm thick sheet of acrylic) to protect the glass from the rock?

3) Order of Aquascaping is Rock first and then sand? (I've read that rock stability is better if put on the glass first).

4) Tank temperature: As this is a reef tank with plans for some easy corals and about 4 fish and invertebrates, what temp is good? I've got the thermometer dialed in at 78 F. right now.

5) What is the approximate cycle time using the anticipated approach as listed above? (Note: I'm not in any rush to get the cycle established, it's about getting it right the first time)

6) Is the cycle complete once the following parameters are reached: Ammonia and Nitrite both at zero, Nitrate around 5 ppm?

Thanks again for all of the help regarding the lighting.

Neil

 

[Ctg0209]

You don’t have to keep adding ammonia if you are ghost feeding. The food will eventually break down. You don’t need to put anything on the bottom in between the rock and the glass just be careful not to drop when aquascaping and yes you want the rock on the glass then add sand. Otherwise you might get sand sifting critters under your rock and destabilize your aquascape. 78-79 is where you want to be. The cycle time varies. If you cure your rock you will have a much easier time maintaining good nitrate and phosphate levels. If you don’t you could be battling that for 6 months. And finally yes once ammonia and nitrite are completely zero you have finished your cycle. At this point you’ll get a diatom bloom but it usually goes away on its own. Also for the first few months you’ll see lots of different algae blooms just remember it takes time to really get a tank to mature just cause the nitrogen cycle is complete doesn’t mean you have a fully mature system. Good luck

 

[Neil S.]

You don’t have to keep adding ammonia if you are ghost feeding. The food will eventually break down. You don’t need to put anything on the bottom in between the rock and the glass just be careful not to drop when aquascaping and yes you want the rock on the glass then add sand. Otherwise you might get sand sifting critters under your rock and destabilize your aquascape. 78-79 is where you want to be. The cycle time varies. If you cure your rock you will have a much easier time maintaining good nitrate and phosphate levels. If you don’t you could be battling that for 6 months. And finally yes once ammonia and nitrite are completely zero you have finished your cycle. At this point you’ll get a diatom bloom but it usually goes away on its own. Also for the first few months you’ll see lots of different algae blooms just remember it takes time to really get a tank to mature just cause the nitrogen cycle is complete doesn’t mean you have a fully mature system. Good luck

Thanks for the answers CTG0209. Just to clarify your point regarding ammonia or ghost feeding. I assume that they are both equivalent, either ghost feed or use ammonia. Can I ask how much should be used, and on what schedule (daily?) for either of the two. Is one better than the other? (I would assume a metered dosing of ammonia is easier to control).

Neil

 

[Idoc]

1. Dose ammonia up to 2ppm... once it is zero, dose again. Continue dividing and testing until the system can clear out 2ppm ammonia in 24 hours... then, you're cycled. Don't worry about the nitrites. And, your nitrates willbe easy more than 5ppm when you are done! But, you will need to do a 50-75% water change sheet the cycle and that should take care of the nitrates. Don't dose the ammonia over 5ppm at any given time, though... could stall the cycle.

1a. Your feeding the system with the ammonia dosing... no other ghost feeding required.

2 & 3. Rock first and placed directly on the bottom glass... then sand. Also, put sand in before the water...less body mess. And, rinse the dry sand until the water runs clean...no clouding in the tank this way.

4. Personal preference on temp... many keep between 78-80 degrees.

5. 30 days and just about any tankwill be cycled. Mine cycled in 30 days and i didn't use any bacteria in a bottle.

6. Your cycle is complete when your system can convert 2ppm ammonia to zero in 24hrs.

Good luck!

 

[Neil S.]

1. Dose ammonia up to 2ppm... once it is zero, dose again. Continue dividing and testing until the system can clear out 2ppm ammonia in 24 hours... then, you're cycled. Don't worry about the nitrites. And, your nitrates willbe easy more than 5ppm when you are done! But, you will need to do a 50-75% water change sheet the cycle and that should take care of the nitrates. Don't dose the ammonia over 5ppm at any given time, though... could stall the cycle.

1a. Your feeding the system with the ammonia dosing... no other ghost feeding required.

2 & 3. Rock first and placed directly on the bottom glass... then sand. Also, put sand in before the water...less body mess. And, rinse the dry sand until the water runs clean...no clouding in the tank this way.

4. Personal preference on temp... many keep between 78-80 degrees.

5. 30 days and just about any tankwill be cycled. Mine cycled in 30 days and i didn't use any bacteria in a bottle.

6. Your cycle is complete when your system can convert 2ppm ammonia to zero in 24hrs.

Good luck!

That is awesome information, thanks for the detailed response on point 1, that is very helpful.

Neil

 

[Hermie]

Hey Neil, do you still have the Vista running?

 

[Neil S.]

@NotASpammerDude . Yes I do. It has actually turned out really well! Water in around the beginning of October, Cycle completed by November 12, then started stocking. First in was a small cleanup crew, just one Hermit Crab and two Trochus snails. Then about two weeks later I started adding fish and coral at the rate of about 1 fish and 1 coral per week for December.

The initial plan has worked out unmodified and the tank is now starting to grow coraline algae. If I can figure out how to upload some pictures I will put them up.

 

[Neil S.]

@NotASpammerDude . Yes I do. It has actually turned out really well! Water in around the beginning of October, Cycle completed by November 12, then started stocking. First in was a small cleanup crew, just one Hermit Crab and two Trochus snails. Then about two weeks later I started adding fish and coral at the rate of about 1 fish and 1 coral per week for December.

The initial plan has worked out unmodified and the tank is now starting to grow coraline algae. If I can figure out how to upload some pictures I will put them up.

 

[Neil S.]

@NotASpammerDude . Yes I do. It has actually turned out really well! Water in around the beginning of October, Cycle completed by November 12, then started stocking. First in was a small cleanup crew, just one Hermit Crab and two Trochus snails. Then about two weeks later I started adding fish and coral at the rate of about 1 fish and 1 coral per week for December.

The initial plan has worked out unmodified and the tank is now starting to grow coraline algae.

Here are a few pictures. One is from the front, the other two are top down. The coraline is very prominent on the horizontal rocks, the vertical rocks are just starting to colour.

 

[Neil S.]

The Pulsing Xenias are closed from having just fed them.

 

[Neil S.]

And for anyone interested, this tank is running on a Fluval 206 Canister Filter! All of the numbers are great. No Phosphate, zero on Ammonia, Nitrite, and only a teensy <.4 Nitrate. KH is 11, Calcium is 460 ppm, Iodide is 0.04, pH is 8.2

 

[Neil S.]

Sorry for the multiple posts of the original reply to NotASpammerDude….I had issues with the photo upload, ......stupid user error.....

 

[Sarah24!]

Hello,

First welcome to R2R where you will find lots of lovely people and more info than you can fathom. I hope to answer your questions but I’m also going to be honest. Depending on what your going to do with your tank, aka reef or fish? Of it’s a fish only your initial plan should be okay. It’s not what I would do but on paper it works.

This is a very very slow hobby, and one should not rush this. If your going to do a full reef, what kind of reef? Are you doing sps, lps mixed etc. These are very important questions that you need to know before hand and what is your overall goal. Failure to have this plan in place will cause some problems and lots of extra money.

I have owned two tanks my first a 150 and the second my current 240. The 150 I did used half dry rock and non live sand. After I went through my cycle naturally, it takes about 60 days. I was good for fish, then about six months in I went with corals. After about a year and a half I kept having alage blooms. Between all the hair alage and the other blooms from the rock leaching was a nightmare. Other members have had similar problems by doing this. It’s cheaper now but will cost more later.

My second tank I used all live rock and all new live sand on my 240. I have had no algae issues and my tank has been much more stable. Hair alage and other forms are not fun to get rid of once your reef has started to take shape.

If you go this route, just do it naturally, maybe take the dead rock and stick it in a 50 drum with salt water and power head and keep it dark for 90 days. It will keep alage off but bacteria will grow and you can add some of the dr tims of you really want to. But keep it dark and with flow, it will make the rock live. I also suggest that you run a uv sterilizer the whole time during this process. Yes (I get made fun of it ) but the green killing machine will really help keep alage and others nasties away. It will also make your water crystal clear.

If you have any other questions please feel free to ask. I agree with you, let’s not break the bank doing this, but let’s really not break the bank by doing this twice. This process is slow and nothing happens fast. Let that dead rock cure in a 50 gallon (depending how much rock you have) for 60-90 days. The hair alage drove me crazy so I went all live this time and have not had any issues. I also run two uv sterilizer s at all times.

Sincerely
Sarah

 

[Hermie]

Sorry for the multiple posts of the original reply to NotASpammerDude….I had issues with the photo upload, ......stupid user error.....

haha ironic right

@NotASpammerDude
Here are a few pictures. One is from the front, the other two are top down. The coraline is very prominent on the horizontal rocks, the vertical rocks are just starting to colour.

Hey these are awesome. Did your coralline come from the frag?
I also have a Vista (converted from FW) just a few months behind yours, right now I am enjoying diatoms... It's a cool tank IMO, just a shame the lid is hard to work with, easier to just add eggcrate like you did. I'm now at the point where I need to set up some way to hang the lights because resting them on the egg crate is somewhat of a nuisance even though the tank gets higher PAR w/ the closer lighting.

I did add a background (while it was brackish) and decided to keep it up now, It's hard to find a good one, but I wasn't in favor of all black for the tank, all blue may have worked... either way that's one suggestion I'd offer (background) as long as there's just wires and wall behind the tank.