Dual Pumps in Sump

SinkyShippy · Jun 12, 2019

I am going on vacation next week so I purchased an ATO system. I'm also setting up a sump. Should I put duo pumps in the sump so there are no worries if one fails? My concern is the power goes out (or one breaks - I have a battery that will keep the pump going), my overflow box continues to pump water out of the tank, and the ATO system pumps water in thereby overflowing the sump because the pump is out of commission.

W1ngz · Jun 12, 2019

The ATO level sensor should be in the return section of the sump. If the return fails, the sump level rises, there's no reason the ATO should overfill a sump that is already resting higher than normal operating level.

My personal .02 though, if things are stable, one week before vacation is a bad time to make major changes to a system that won't be supervised.

SinkyShippy · Jun 12, 2019

W1ngz said:
The ATO level sensor should be in the return section of the sump. If the return fails, the sump level rises, there's no reason the ATO should overfill a sump that is already resting higher than normal operating level.

My personal .02 though, if things are stable, one week before vacation is a bad time to make major changes to a system that won't be supervised.

Oy. I was thinking the ATO should be in the DT not the sump. Should the sump have two pumps?

I'm not necessarily rushing on the sump right now. I need to get the ATO in the tank because of evaporation. I have no one to watch my tank.

Sailingeric · Jun 12, 2019

ATO in the sump and you should have enough room in your sump that once the power is off/ pump failure it does not overfill until the level in the DT is below the overflow. Battery back up on a power is all you need should you have a power outage. Depending on how big your tank going a few days with any top off water may be fine.

If you don't have a sump running now, then wait to you get back.

SinkyShippy · Jun 12, 2019

Sailingeric said:
ATO in the sump and you should have enough room in your sump that once the power is off it does not overfill until the level in the DT is below the overflow. Battery back up on a power is all you need should you have a power outage. Depending on how big your tank going a few days with any top off water may be fine.

I have a 20 gallon. Evaporation is quick.

Sailingeric · Jun 12, 2019

Jessica Schoen said:
I have a 20 gallon. Evaporation is quick.

Then I would hold off on the sump or dont run it and just have the ATO on the DT if you fear your pump is not going to make it.

SinkyShippy · Jun 12, 2019

Sailingeric said:
Then I would hold off on the sump or dont run it and just have the ATO on the DT if you fear your pump is not going to make it.

It's a brand new pump. I just was thinking that if I hook the ATO up then it has to be in the DT not the sump. Makes a lot of sense what you guys are saying though. New to the hobby so I don't always think like you smart people do lol

W1ngz · Jun 12, 2019

Agree - put the ATO in the display and then play with sumps later when you're around to supervise.

Assuming the overflow box you mention is a hang on type, they are prone to overflowing when power failures happen. You'll need to closely monitor it when you set it up, so doing that at the same time as you plan/prep a trip is 100% not the right time.

When a sump and pump setup is operating, the water level drop due to evap always happens in the return pump section, assuming the chambers aren't open along the bottom of the dividers and water has to flow over them to get from one to the next.

SinkyShippy · Jun 12, 2019

W1ngz said:
Agree - put the ATO in the display and then play with sumps later when you're around to supervise.

Assuming the overflow box you mention is a hang on type, they are prone to overflowing when power failures happen. You'll need to closely monitor it when you set it up, so doing that at the same time as you plan/prep a trip is 100% not the right time.

How are they prone to overflowing when they aren't plugged into anything?

W1ngz · Jun 12, 2019

Jessica Schoen said:
How are they prone to overflowing when they aren't plugged into anything?

Before getting in to that to avoid muddying the waters for no reason, can you confirm what kind of overflow box you actually have?

SinkyShippy · Jun 12, 2019

W1ngz said:
Before getting in to that to avoid muddying the waters for no reason, can you confirm what kind of overflow box you actually have?

https://www.marinedepot.com/Marine_Depot_Overflow_Box_OF_300-MD8141-FIOFEB-vi.html

W1ngz · Jun 12, 2019

ok so it really is a hang on overflow.

Whatever goes up has to come down, in this case water. If the power fails, the water drains out of the overflow into the sump. When the power comes back on, the pump starts pumping water up again. If the overflow doesn't restart the siphon properly to bring the water back down into the sump, the pump will still continue to pump water up. With nowhere to go if the siphon doesn't restart properly, the pump will overflow the tank.

Some overflow boxes are better than others when it comes to self starting. There's ways to mitigate it automatically with additional vacuum pumps to force the siphon to restart.

Also, to answer your original question, I think running 2 pumps for a 20gal is overkill. Having a spare is fantastic, and in the mean time it will also serve well as a water mixing pump.

SinkyShippy · Jun 12, 2019

W1ngz said:
ok so it really is a hang on overflow.

Whatever goes up has to come down, in this case water. If the power fails, the water drains out of the overflow into the sump. When the power comes back on, the pump starts pumping water up again. If the overflow doesn't restart the siphon properly to bring the water back down into the sump, the pump will still continue to pump water up. With nowhere to go if the siphon doesn't restart properly, the pump will overflow the tank.

Some overflow boxes are better than others when it comes to self starting. There's ways to mitigate it automatically with additional vacuum pumps to force the siphon to restart.

Also, to answer your original question, I think running 2 pumps for a 20gal is overkill. Having a spare is fantastic, and in the mean time it will also serve well as a water mixing pump.

Do you think I should keep the pump plugged into my backup battery?

This is what I have: APC UPS Battery Backup & Surge Protector with USB Charger, 600VA, APC Back-UPS (BE600M1) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FWAZEIU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_1VvaDb2S7BXW8

25W should last about 2 hours

W1ngz · Jun 12, 2019

Jessica Schoen said:
Do you think I should keep the pump plugged into my backup battery?
This is what I have: APC UPS Battery Backup & Surge Protector with USB Charger, 600VA, APC Back-UPS (BE600M1) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FWAZEIU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_1VvaDb2S7BXW8

That will definitely help for short term power failures, but I wouldn't do it that way. Do a whole bunch of tests with your overflow box, and some research, maybe start a new thread so people can say how reliable they really are. Personally, if I had to have that style of overlflow I would add an aqua-lifter pump with the intake line up as high as possible in the U shaped pipe. That will suck out the air in the pipe and force the siphon to restart if it can't/doesn't start by itself.

The battery will last much longer running a single powerhead or air pump in the event of longer power failures where the water sits still so long it runs out of oxygen and the fish suffocate.

SinkyShippy · Jun 12, 2019

W1ngz said:
That will definitely help for short term power failures, but I wouldn't do it that way. Do a whole bunch of tests with your overflow box, and some research, maybe start a new thread so people can say how reliable they really are. Personally, if I had to have that style of overlflow I would add an aqua-lifter pump with the intake line up as high as possible in the U shaped pipe. That will suck out the air in the pipe and force the siphon to restart if it can't/doesn't start by itself.

The battery will last much longer running a single powerhead or air pump in the event of longer power failures where the water sits still so long it runs out of oxygen and the fish suffocate.

I'll be honest with you. I don't know how an aqua lifter pump works. Does it need to be in water at all times like a normal pump?

W1ngz · Jun 12, 2019

Jessica Schoen said:
I'll be honest with you. I don't know how an aqua lifter pump works. Does it need to be in water at all times like a normal pump?

No, it's basically a vacuum pump. It's just as happy sucking air or water. When it runs out of air, it will pump the water instead. Just make sure the outlet is securely attached inside the sump.

sharpimage · Jun 12, 2019

How long are you going on vacation? If it is less than a week, I would not set up an ato. If you do, limit the amount of water in the ato container, in case it fails or overflows. Random stuff only breaks when you are out of town

SinkyShippy · Jun 12, 2019

W1ngz said:
No, it's basically a vacuum pump. It's just as happy sucking air or water. When it runs out of air, it will pump the water instead. Just make sure the outlet is securely attached inside the sump.

Oh wow. That's really helpful! Thanks so much for your help. I'll look into it before I set up the sump. Just looking at it on Amazon, it has two holes on the front of it. I'm assuming one pulls the water/air and the other one is the exit?

W1ngz · Jun 12, 2019

sharpimage said:
Random stuff only breaks when you are out of town

^^^
This. lol

SinkyShippy · Jun 12, 2019

sharpimage said:
How long are you going on vacation? If it is less than a week, I would not set up an ato. If you do, limit the amount of water in the ato container, in case it fails or overflows. Random stuff only breaks when you are out of town

My tank evaporates very quickly because it's only a 20 gallon tank and I need a fan to keep the tank cool. I need to put a gallon of water in about every two days or so.