Electrostatic charge
- Thread starter ksed
- Start date
- Tagged users None
saltyphish
Certified Sand Groomer
Not sure about your age but when I was little my brother and I used to wear these pajamas that had a plastic like material on the bottom of the foot. We would run around the house scooting our feet around on the floor and walk over to someone and zap them with a electrostatic discharge. Basically that is what this device is doing. It is moving the air water mixture over a piece of metal resulting in friction build up creating a little zap of electricity. It is volts only no current moving through the charge so livestock would not be harmed. I have never heard of a device like this but the concept is neat and interesting. If the little zap does as the article says, it would definitely be a big help. I wonder if the unit will add heat in the water?
OP
OP
ksed
Valuable Member
Make sense. I was on another thread where it was mention that static electricity would help with foam fractionation (doc removal) and Randy put that theory to rest, just wondering if this would be any different.
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
Staff member
Super Moderator
Excellence Award
Expert Contributor
Article Contributor
R2R Research
My Tank Thread
It's not different. I added my comment there that it is baloney.
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
Staff member
Super Moderator
Excellence Award
Expert Contributor
Article Contributor
R2R Research
My Tank Thread
Here's the really ridiculous comment they make on their web site:
http://reeftoys.com/products/p2o-reactor-blue-075-pipe-size-up-to-80gl-size-reef-tank
"Electrostatic Utilization – This charging of water re-energizes “water” in a good way. The alignment of water molecules is called polarization. The polarization allows the water to be able to absorb charged organic sludge in the system and creates micro-currents that work in the same manner as static electricity in regards to hair and dust to an electrostatically charged balloon. It is not harmful to reef organisms or any aquatic organism in minutely dispersed electrostatic transfers. This is what makes running water “fresh” as opposed to a stagnant pond of water.
What the P2O Reactor is recreating is the “running water” portion of the equation. Once again, the question is asked, “Isn’t my skimmer running and increased flow from my return pump sufficient?” The answer is, unfortunately, no because of the immediate grounding to the device itself (Provided that the unregulated power @ 120VAC is not damaged)
Waves crashing on the beach create static electricity. Running water from rivers entering the ocean at different dielectric mediums create static electricity. Clouds passing each other during a thunderstorm create static electricity....."
Unfortunately, these people seem to have have zero understanding of the science of water.
Yes, you can polarize water molecules to partially orient in an electric field. It can happen near charged surfaces, although I have no particular reason to believe that these two conductors (silver metal and the seawater) have a significant charge across the interface. Normally electrostatic charges are unstable when two conductors contact.
That said, let's accept that there is polarization of the water molecules at the interface. Once they move away, they randomize again, and do so in a very, very tiny fraction of a second (measured in picoseconds). So before the water molecules have even moved the tiniest fraction of an inch from the silver surface, their orientations are completely randomized again.
It certainly does not provide a feature of the water that later is used to help dissolve sludge in the tank. Such a suggestion completely lacks scientific understanding of what solvation means.
http://reeftoys.com/products/p2o-reactor-blue-075-pipe-size-up-to-80gl-size-reef-tank
"Electrostatic Utilization – This charging of water re-energizes “water” in a good way. The alignment of water molecules is called polarization. The polarization allows the water to be able to absorb charged organic sludge in the system and creates micro-currents that work in the same manner as static electricity in regards to hair and dust to an electrostatically charged balloon. It is not harmful to reef organisms or any aquatic organism in minutely dispersed electrostatic transfers. This is what makes running water “fresh” as opposed to a stagnant pond of water.
What the P2O Reactor is recreating is the “running water” portion of the equation. Once again, the question is asked, “Isn’t my skimmer running and increased flow from my return pump sufficient?” The answer is, unfortunately, no because of the immediate grounding to the device itself (Provided that the unregulated power @ 120VAC is not damaged)
Waves crashing on the beach create static electricity. Running water from rivers entering the ocean at different dielectric mediums create static electricity. Clouds passing each other during a thunderstorm create static electricity....."
Unfortunately, these people seem to have have zero understanding of the science of water.
Yes, you can polarize water molecules to partially orient in an electric field. It can happen near charged surfaces, although I have no particular reason to believe that these two conductors (silver metal and the seawater) have a significant charge across the interface. Normally electrostatic charges are unstable when two conductors contact.
That said, let's accept that there is polarization of the water molecules at the interface. Once they move away, they randomize again, and do so in a very, very tiny fraction of a second (measured in picoseconds). So before the water molecules have even moved the tiniest fraction of an inch from the silver surface, their orientations are completely randomized again.
It certainly does not provide a feature of the water that later is used to help dissolve sludge in the tank. Such a suggestion completely lacks scientific understanding of what solvation means.
Jon Warner
Well-Known Member
Remember the company selling magnets in a PVC tube with in/out fittings in the 90's? Of course this product makes different claims but it's not the first "interesting" product we've seen in the hobby. 
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
Staff member
Super Moderator
Excellence Award
Expert Contributor
Article Contributor
R2R Research
My Tank Thread
FWIW, Reeftoys has engaged me at the Reef Builders site and wants to provide additional explanation. 
Jon Warner
Well-Known Member
FWIW, Reeftoys has engaged me at the Reef Builders site and wants to provide additional explanation.
Oh excellent!! Please share when you receive it!!
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
Staff member
Super Moderator
Excellence Award
Expert Contributor
Article Contributor
R2R Research
My Tank Thread
FWIW, and as I stated on the Reef Builders site,I do not doubt that a frothy mix of air and water will be able to drive off some CO2 (if there is an excess relative to the air in the mix), just as a skimmer does.
It is the electrostatic explanation and the claim that the water is improved for later binding of organics that isn't reasonable.
TrPPnN
Community Member
Quick question, guys... who here is degreed in fluid dynamics?
Any laminar flow of one substance against another does create a charge build up... I'm not sure what is funny about capacitance?
I've been working in process control all my life and anything from water flowing in pipes to pneumatic conveying creates a static discharge that needs to be sent to ground...
Any industrial manufacturing, process controls engineer could vouch for that...
Skimmers do not discharge CO2 efficiently... If the cap of the skimmer is meant to keep the smell of the skimmate in and CO2 is a heavy gas... the turbulence in the skimmer itself becomes more like a CO2 reactor in a planted tank and re-dissolves the CO2 back INTO the water...
I just Googled colloidal and particulate silver plate ions in water purification for wastewater/water treatment facilities... and it seems like they actually employ silver ions to neutralize certain pathogenic bacteria... It is also utilized in saltwater hot tubs and pools... might be some merit to this...
If this little contraption claims to do all this... let's see it work...
I see that there is validity to the concepts, but to put it all together would be shear genius... but yeah... near improbable...
Any laminar flow of one substance against another does create a charge build up... I'm not sure what is funny about capacitance?
I've been working in process control all my life and anything from water flowing in pipes to pneumatic conveying creates a static discharge that needs to be sent to ground...
Any industrial manufacturing, process controls engineer could vouch for that...
Skimmers do not discharge CO2 efficiently... If the cap of the skimmer is meant to keep the smell of the skimmate in and CO2 is a heavy gas... the turbulence in the skimmer itself becomes more like a CO2 reactor in a planted tank and re-dissolves the CO2 back INTO the water...
I just Googled colloidal and particulate silver plate ions in water purification for wastewater/water treatment facilities... and it seems like they actually employ silver ions to neutralize certain pathogenic bacteria... It is also utilized in saltwater hot tubs and pools... might be some merit to this...
If this little contraption claims to do all this... let's see it work...
I see that there is validity to the concepts, but to put it all together would be shear genius... but yeah... near improbable...
TrPPnN
Community Member
Running streams of water is energized with static electricity as well... there had been a number of studies to confirm this... just saying...
Why we're taught as boy scouts to never drink from a stagnant pool of water...
The current found in "live water" is measured in picoamperes... that's 10^-12 amps... which is very very small... silver ions are known to release at 10^-16 amps... kinda like a zinc block is utilized to prevent corrosion in the navy or other marine or corrosive environments...
So... you all have piqued my interest in this contraption... so I followed the links you have provided... and yeah... looks like a shiny black PVC pipe fittings...
But if you actually take a look into it... the orifice plate is a pretty novel idea... similar to that of the venturi intake of a skimmer pump, but utilizing a pressure drop to create a little vacuum/cavitation at the point of air intake... in manufacturing plants we utilize something very similar but simpler to mix injected solutions into the solute en route to being transferred to another holding tank...
The silver... meh... it does have capacitance greater that that of saltwater... so I can see that 4 tiny clips should be able to hold just enough charge to knock a couple of free silver ions loose...
Over time, though... I see this as the most expensive part to replace... everything else, not so much...
Pretty interesting though, guys... hopefully there is some merit to all this guffawing of someone's efforts without truly understanding...
Why we're taught as boy scouts to never drink from a stagnant pool of water...
The current found in "live water" is measured in picoamperes... that's 10^-12 amps... which is very very small... silver ions are known to release at 10^-16 amps... kinda like a zinc block is utilized to prevent corrosion in the navy or other marine or corrosive environments...
So... you all have piqued my interest in this contraption... so I followed the links you have provided... and yeah... looks like a shiny black PVC pipe fittings...
But if you actually take a look into it... the orifice plate is a pretty novel idea... similar to that of the venturi intake of a skimmer pump, but utilizing a pressure drop to create a little vacuum/cavitation at the point of air intake... in manufacturing plants we utilize something very similar but simpler to mix injected solutions into the solute en route to being transferred to another holding tank...
The silver... meh... it does have capacitance greater that that of saltwater... so I can see that 4 tiny clips should be able to hold just enough charge to knock a couple of free silver ions loose...
Over time, though... I see this as the most expensive part to replace... everything else, not so much...
Pretty interesting though, guys... hopefully there is some merit to all this guffawing of someone's efforts without truly understanding...
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
Staff member
Super Moderator
Excellence Award
Expert Contributor
Article Contributor
R2R Research
My Tank Thread
Yes, silver has long been used to kill bacteria. I don't doubt it has some effect, if perhaps only locally on its surface.
Fluid dyanamics, no. Physical chemistry of water interfaces? Yes, my PhD from Harvard. My thesis research was on the interactions at the interface between water and surfaces with different chemical properties and was published in top line surface science journals, such as Langmuir.
FWIW, seawater is much more conductive than pure water and won't normally collect a static charge the way DI water might. Conductive fluids don't normally generate significant static charges because the conduction can dissipate them. The silver will certainly contain mirror charges of the ions nearby in solution, but I'm not convinced you'll have what is normally considered "static" charge in such a scenario. Regardless of the presence or absence of static charges, which do not do anything useful for the tank, you DEFINITELY do not polarize the water in a way that persists once it leaves the surface of the silver
I'm not sure I understand your skimmer comment. Skimmers pull in lots of fresh air to mix with the water, and do a good job of aeration and gas exchange. I've monitored d that myself when I took my skimmer offline as an experiment. I use limewater, which causes a net demand in the tank for CO2, and without my skimmer the pH rose considerably.
Fluid dyanamics, no. Physical chemistry of water interfaces? Yes, my PhD from Harvard. My thesis research was on the interactions at the interface between water and surfaces with different chemical properties and was published in top line surface science journals, such as Langmuir.
FWIW, seawater is much more conductive than pure water and won't normally collect a static charge the way DI water might. Conductive fluids don't normally generate significant static charges because the conduction can dissipate them. The silver will certainly contain mirror charges of the ions nearby in solution, but I'm not convinced you'll have what is normally considered "static" charge in such a scenario. Regardless of the presence or absence of static charges, which do not do anything useful for the tank, you DEFINITELY do not polarize the water in a way that persists once it leaves the surface of the silver
I'm not sure I understand your skimmer comment. Skimmers pull in lots of fresh air to mix with the water, and do a good job of aeration and gas exchange. I've monitored d that myself when I took my skimmer offline as an experiment. I use limewater, which causes a net demand in the tank for CO2, and without my skimmer the pH rose considerably.
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
Staff member
Super Moderator
Excellence Award
Expert Contributor
Article Contributor
R2R Research
My Tank Thread
Randy Holmes-Farley
Reef Chemist
Staff member
Super Moderator
Excellence Award
Expert Contributor
Article Contributor
R2R Research
My Tank Thread
Thanks. Here's one of my thesis papers:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/la00082a025?journalCode=langd5
TrPPnN
Community Member
Randy, you forget that air (o2, h2, and n2) is also the dielectric boundary and carries significant charge.
It's the concept of how this device that's interesting. Running water has different properties than that of water in a beaker standing still. Compression rates are different, dielectric deflection from a charged surface is different... cavitation utilizing a dP also changes the characteristic of water. Remember the triple point? Energy is released when you cross that pressure differential.
I understand your logic of non aerated salt water being highly conductive and allows for quick dissipation of charges back to where? A grounding probe?
I'm glad that you are degreed... but only in a particular ken... I'm just an electrical guy.
I do not claim to know it all.
But congratulations on being published! I was too... at 19
FWIW, the dissolved O2 in running water is what keeps it fresh... O2 can be the charge carrier in water.
It's the concept of how this device that's interesting. Running water has different properties than that of water in a beaker standing still. Compression rates are different, dielectric deflection from a charged surface is different... cavitation utilizing a dP also changes the characteristic of water. Remember the triple point? Energy is released when you cross that pressure differential.
I understand your logic of non aerated salt water being highly conductive and allows for quick dissipation of charges back to where? A grounding probe?
I'm glad that you are degreed... but only in a particular ken... I'm just an electrical guy.
I do not claim to know it all.
But congratulations on being published! I was too... at 19
FWIW, the dissolved O2 in running water is what keeps it fresh... O2 can be the charge carrier in water.
