Electrostatic charge

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Based on your expertise, why are the concepts wrong... why are the designs wrong... and why are there tons of articles written about static electricity and fluids through non grounded pipes, especially PVC and Plastics (regardless of fluid makeup) and OSHA regulations protecting from such?

I'll make it simple and state a summary of the things I believe to be incorrect about the claims:

1. I do not believe that static electricity will form significant charges at a silver/seawater interface.
2. I do not believe there is any possible mechanism where the presence of a static charge will drive CO2 out of water.
3. I do not believe that the water molecules in the device become polarized in a way that impacts subsequent properties of the water, such as the claim:

"The polarization allows the water to be able to absorb charged organic sludge in the system..."

4. I do not think the silver does anything useful with respect to bacteria, but assuming somehow that so much silver is released that it stops the growth of gram negative bacteria in the tank, it will also work similarly on a wide range of bacteria, and that isn't something I want to have happen to any of them in my tank (including gram negatives)

5. The claim that CO2 is trapped inside a skimmer cup is ridiculous. Most skimmers (like mine) pull in lots of fresh air constantly, and it flushes through the water and out of the skimmer. Such skimmers are demonstrably suited to drive the aquarium toward a pH that is in equilibrium with the amount of CO2 in the room air. CO2 does definitely not separate from the air due to its being heavier than O2 and N2.

There are other parts of the discussion that I also think are wrong or misleading, but I'll leave it at these.

 

[TrPPnN]

None at all.. just got curious every time I see LED's or Electricity... my weakness that draws me in to most threads...
I read and borrowed a few of what I read from their site that you guys linked... and it seems as though the CONCEPTS are plausible.

I do know however that any fluid does create a static charge especially flowing through and out of plastic or pvc piping... I watched some of their videos and it wasn't clear what was going on other than a pump flowing through the device... then a cutaway to it attached to a skimmer... then a cutaway to an adjustable baffle... then their logo...

I might drop a buck sixty-nine just to do some testing... I'll let you guys know... and maybe I'll be able to explain it better than what they did...

 

[TrPPnN]

Fair enough, Randy... Points taken and if I would be able to refute a few items on stratification of CO2, would you mind me sharing?
Though your system maybe set up correctly... I have seen many setups (my god... ) LOL You know what I mean....

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

This is an example of fluid static buildup... in this case, Lubricating Oils... :

...

Charging in Hydrocarbon Filtration Many investigators have studied electrostatic charge generation during filtration of liquid hydrocarbons. The charge generated may be either positive or negative, depending on the fixed charge of the filter material and the fluid used. Due to the relatively low conductivity of hydrocarbon liquids, these charges are carried downstream and accumulate without immediate discharge. The amount of charge generated by the flow of a hydrocarbon liquid and filtration is related to several fluid and filter properties. Charge generation typically strengthens with increasing flow, reducing fluid conductivity, with certain additive packages and with increasing viscosity. Charge accumulation increases with lower fluid conductivity, lower temperatures and higher viscosities.

and then later:

Various attempts have been made to alleviate the potential of static charge accumulation in filtration systems, namely:

• Use an antistatic additive. Such additives will increase the fluid conductivity, thereby accelerating the rate of charge relaxation.

and then:

Influence of Fluid Conductivity As in the discussion regarding charge decay, it is noted that the decay time depends mostly on the conductivity of the fluid. Industrial lube oils are usually highly refined oils with a low concentration of additives, and as a result, generally have low conductivities. Hydraulic oils, on the other hand, traditionally have a high conductivity due to the use of metallic-based additives like zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP), so that charge carried by the oil is generally dissipated as it passes around the system. The accumulated charge generally remains at a level where discharge is not experienced.

and then most clearly:

As a comparison, for aviation fuels, ASTM D4865 provides recommended limits on conductivity to prevent any chance of spark ignition. As an example, some military specifications require a fuel conductivity of 100 to 700 pS/m.

Glad you posted that. It demonstrates my point that seawater is not going to generate or hold a static charge.

Oils are very, VERY different than seawater.

K (conductivity) for oils is about 100 pS/M (from the data you posted).

K (conductivity) for seawater is 53 mS/cm, or 5,300,000,000,000 pS/M.

So the conductivity of seawater is 53 billion times as high as the oil.

Consequently, the high conductivity prevents charge from generating or staying on seawater surfaces.

The military wants at least 100-700 pS/M to prevent static issues. What do you suppose happens with 5,300,000,000,000 pS/M???

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Fair enough, Randy... Points taken and if I would be able to refute a few items on stratification of CO2, would you mind me sharing?
Though your system maybe set up correctly... I have seen many setups (my god... ) LOL You know what I mean....

Sure, I'm happy for you to try, although it is very well known that air (N2, O2, CO2, etc.) does not stratify if it starts fully mixed (assuming we are talking about inches or feet and not miles of depth of atmosphere). It only can be stratified temporarily if it starts out inhomogeneous (such as a CO2 source near the floor of a room (like a chunk of dry ice).

 

[TrPPnN]

Thoughts and comments...

1. Other than grounding straps in industry, seems like these guys are trying to utilize "silver tabs" are the grounding straps to the saltwater providing a channel for release... (IMO)
2. The cavitation of the water from the orifice plate (not static charge) is shaking the CO2 loose from the water column... (sorry clarification) what you'd call de-gassing of CO2.
3. I'd have to go with you on that one... LOL
4. There's a lot of E. Coli and other gram negative cultures found in the home reef which can out populate the beneficial bacteria... (Microbelift Special Blend Nitrifying and Denitrifying Bacteria are Gram Positive)
5. If the air intake is located under the tank stand, like most, and the degassing happens under a closed tank stand (like most), and there is not sufficient amounts of air movement under the enclosed tank stand... it's sucking in degassed CO2 at both the down pipe and back into the skimmer... most skimmer intakes do not extend beyond what the manufacturer provides...

I'm going to borrow from you as well, sir, with all due respect... your article on Low pH: Causes and Cures... excess CO2 either environmental (in home closed environment or under an enclosed sump) can cause a reintroduction of excess CO2 back into the Reef System... Many reefers keep their stand doors shut with no sufficient means to air out the excess degassed CO2... so what ends up happening is that their skimmer sucks back in the CO2 from the environment (under the tank stand) and disregard the notion of obtaining FRESH AIR from outside the enclosed tank stand...

1. I do not believe that static electricity will form significant charges at a silver/seawater interface.
2. I do not believe there is any possible mechanism where the presence of a static charge will drive CO2 out of water.
3. I do not believe that the water molecules in the device become polarized in a way that impacts subsequent properties of the water, such as the claim:

"The polarization allows the water to be able to absorb charged organic sludge in the system..."

4. I do not think the silver does anything useful with respect to bacteria, but assuming somehow that so much silver is released that it stops the growth of gram negative bacteria in the tank, it will also work similarly on a wide range of bacteria, and that isn't something I want to have happen to any of them in my tank (including gram negatives)

5. The claim that CO2 is trapped inside a skimmer cup is ridiculous. Most skimmers (like mine) pull in lots of fresh air constantly, and it flushes through the water and out of the skimmer. Such skimmers are demonstrably suited to drive the aquarium toward a pH that is in equilibrium with the amount of CO2 in the room air. CO2 does definitely not separate from the air due to its being heavier than O2 and N2.

 

[TrPPnN]

We had issues at a plant once degassing CO2 out of the top stack of a building... it was colorless... odorless... it flowed off the sides of the building like a slow motion water fall... after that you are correct, thermal gradients then dispersed it... but not before it overcame a group of pigeons and sparrows sitting on top and near the edge of the building... scary stuff when you're not aware of the dangers in a plant environment...

The degassing was from aerobic bacteria fermenting sugars and starch... of course the alarm went off for low atmospheric O2 in and around the building... I believe the temp of the CO2 was just 5°F below ambient...

 

[twilliard]

Thoughts and comments...

1. Other than grounding straps in industry, seems like these guys are trying to utilize "silver tabs" are the grounding straps to the saltwater providing a channel for release... (IMO)
2. The cavitation of the water from the orifice plate (not static charge) is shaking the CO2 loose from the water column... (sorry clarification) what you'd call de-gassing of CO2.
3. I'd have to go with you on that one... LOL
4. There's a lot of E. Coli and other gram negative cultures found in the home reef which can out populate the beneficial bacteria... (Microbelift Special Blend Nitrifying and Denitrifying Bacteria are Gram Positive)
5. If the air intake is located under the tank stand, like most, and the degassing happens under a closed tank stand (like most), and there is not sufficient amounts of air movement under the enclosed tank stand... it's sucking in degassed CO2 at both the down pipe and back into the skimmer... most skimmer intakes do not extend beyond what the manufacturer provides...

I'm going to borrow from you as well, sir, with all due respect... your article on Low pH: Causes and Cures... excess CO2 either environmental (in home closed environment or under an enclosed sump) can cause a reintroduction of excess CO2 back into the Reef System... Many reefers keep their stand doors shut with no sufficient means to air out the excess degassed CO2... so what ends up happening is that their skimmer sucks back in the CO2 from the environment (under the tank stand) and disregard the notion of obtaining FRESH AIR from outside the enclosed tank stand...

Interesting..
You are correct about enclosed co2 but for people like me where the skimmer is located in free air space wouldn't warrant me to drop the funds for this particular device.
That's all I need is another price of equipment lol
Love reading this!

 

[twilliard]

Thank you I am no engineer but I was an industrial electrician for 20 years.
Waste water treatment plants have hidden dangers
Sorry didn't mean to go off topic but the dangers are real

 

[TrPPnN]

If you kind think about it... our reef tanks are in essence a "small scale sewage plant" with the skimmer as the aeration basin and the "old wet dry" was the trickle filtration method... LOL funny... huh?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

We had issues at a plant once degassing CO2 out of the top stack of a building... it was colorless... odorless... it flowed off the sides of the building like a slow motion water fall... after that you are correct, thermal gradients then dispersed it... but not before it overcame a group of pigeons and sparrows sitting on top and near the edge of the building... scary stuff when you're not aware of the dangers in a plant environment...

The degassing was from aerobic bacteria fermenting sugars and starch... of course the alarm went off for low atmospheric O2 in and around the building... I believe the temp of the CO2 was just 5°F below ambient...

Absolutely. CO2 that starts out locally high will take time to mix into air.

But the air in a skimmer cup is not demixed to begin with. So the air exiting the cup (whether at the top or the bottom of the cup) will have the same CO2 level as that throughout the skimmer cup.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

5. If the air intake is located under the tank stand, like most, and the degassing happens under a closed tank stand (like most), and there is not sufficient amounts of air movement under the enclosed tank stand... it's sucking in degassed CO2 at both the down pipe and back into the skimmer... most skimmer intakes do not extend beyond what the manufacturer provides...

I'm going to borrow from you as well, sir, with all due respect... your article on Low pH: Causes and Cures... excess CO2 either environmental (in home closed environment or under an enclosed sump) can cause a reintroduction of excess CO2 back into the Reef System... Many reefers keep their stand doors shut with no sufficient means to air out the excess degassed CO2... so what ends up happening is that their skimmer sucks back in the CO2 from the environment (under the tank stand) and disregard the notion of obtaining FRESH AIR from outside the enclosed tank stand...

Sure, if they are sucking high CO2 air into the skimmer (whether it is the normal home air high in CO2 or something trapped under a tank stand), it would not reduce CO2. Neither will the PO2 reactor. That's why fresher air is often the easiest way to raise CO2.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

2. The cavitation of the water from the orifice plate (not static charge) is shaking the CO2 loose from the water column... (sorry clarification) what you'd call de-gassing of CO2.

Yes, cavitation may be a way to provide some good mixing of water with air, like some skimmers that may also cause cavitation. My issue was, as stated, that static charge isn't causing any special CO2 effects. I don't doubt the PO2 reactor may be a fine way to mix air and water.

FWIW, cavitation as normally defined causes the water to be temporarily exposed to pressures lower than its vapor pressure, causing gas to be formed from the water. It later collapses back to liquid water. As a round trip process, I'm not sure how that results in CO2 being driven off.

Somehow the CO2 would have to transfer to air rather than water vapor, and be removed with the air before it redissolved back into the water.

FWIW, the dehydration of carbonic acid to CO2 is slow (half time ~0.03 seconds), but is much faster than the hydration of CO2 back into carbonic acid (halt time~23 seconds). So if somehow you got the carbonic acid in the cavitation bubble to dehydrate to CO2, then you might be able to sweep it away somehow before it rehydrated to carbonic acid in the bulk water.

I'm not sure if one can take advantage of this process somehow, but perhaps skimmers and/or this reactor already do.

 

[tyeight]

I think the dialogue going on here is great! I believe in the old days it was just a hobby and now we can say it's a science. A science that is fixated on maintaining sealife and one day "hopefully" aid in rebuilding those ecosystems we have damaged and those which were damaged by natural disasters. Much of what we do is up for debate and often methods become outdated and or prove to be ineffective. With that being said, Randy as a meditator of R2R you have saddled with the responsibility of making sure what comes on the Fourm is fair, accurate and thought provoking. I might be wrong but It seemed as if you were taking this as a personal attack. I do not believe one should jump to conclusions because you believe the information to be incorrect. In some of your responses you used the words "I believe", and that what you are putting fourth are your beliefs. What might be a better challenge is to invite those creators of the new fangled device to explain how they derived this technology and explain how it works. That way we can have an honest debate as to if it truly works or not. I'm just saying.... Let let them prove this device functions as stated and we can put the issue to rest.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I think the dialogue going on here is great! I believe in the old days it was just a hobby and now we can say it's a science. A science that is fixated on maintaining sealife and one day "hopefully" aid in rebuilding those ecosystems we have damaged and those which were damaged by natural disasters. Much of what we do is up for debate and often methods become outdated and or prove to be ineffective. With that being said, Randy as a meditator of R2R you have saddled with the responsibility of making sure what comes on the Fourm is fair, accurate and thought provoking. I might be wrong but It seemed as if you were taking this as a personal attack. I do not believe one should jump to conclusions because you believe the information to be incorrect. In some of your responses you used the words "I believe", and that what you are putting fourth are your beliefs. What might be a better challenge is to invite those creators of the new fangled device to explain how they derived this technology and explain how it works. That way we can have an honest debate as to if it truly works or not. I'm just saying.... Let let them prove this device functions as stated and we can put the issue to rest.

Thanks for the input. I'm not sure that they have any intent to show data demonstrating its claims (the owner of Reef Toys did not mention it in our brief discussion on Reef Builders), but if so, that would be great.

As one final comment on the conflict issue, it was suggested to me by an R2R member (not staff) that some participants in the discussion might be affiliated with Reef Toys for a variety of reasons (not all stated publicly). For that reason, I had an obligation to clarify the situation by asking. As far as I am concerned, that issue is now in the past and I see no need to discuss it further.

 

[tyeight]

Thanks for the input. I'm not sure that they have any intent to show data demonstrating its claims (the owner of Reef Toys did not mention it in our brief discussion on Reef Builders), but if so, that would be great.

As one final comment on the conflict issue, it was suggested to me by an R2R member (not staff) that some participants in the discussion might be affiliated with Reef Toys for a variety of reasons (not all stated publicly). For that reason, I had an obligation to clarify the situation by asking. As far as I am concerned, that issue is now in the past and I see no need to discuss it further.

With that being said.... After all the discussion, If the company does not have the "facts" and or supporting documentation to support this contraption then I guess your statement puts the question of "does it work" to rest. I hope we continue to make

 

[JimWelsh]

While it's not a claim specifically about the product, there is a "fact" that they claim in the "Q&A" area of the page on their website about this product that I'd love to see some supporting data for. They say, "Sucking on silver utensils and silver coins has been used to gain immunity against such diseases as the Bubonic Plague" (http://reeftoys.com/products/p2o-reactor-blue-075-pipe-size-up-to-80gl-size-reef-tank). As implausible as that statement is, I thought I'd humor the idea, and googled that exact phrase. Several links to anti-vaxer sites and sites touting the wonders of colloidal silver came up, each using that exact phrase.

While this is not an argument against the feasibility of the manufacturer's claims about the product, it does cause me to question the validity of their thought processes, their judgement, and their overall veracity.

 

[TrPPnN]

Yeah... sucking on silver does not "give you immunity"... LOL that's a bit far fetched and unfounded... but it can provide anti-microbial properties in one's digestive tract...LOL

Oh... but check this out... just in regards to cavitative processes...
This was where I was citing from... for environmental wastewater/water treatment facilities...

 

[TrPPnN]

I agree with JimWelsh and Tyeight, they need to brush up on their Q&A's... LOL

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I don't doubt that cavitation may be a useful process in skimming and devices like the P2O reactor.