Electrostatic charge

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Here's a little something on static electricity generation... I'll quote and copy the URL here as well...
I understand, Randy, the conductivity of saltwater is higher than what's quoted below or ideal... but any fluid flowing through the pipe at a high velocity creates static...
The PVC piping is the dielectric medium that can hold charge at a higher delta V than the surrounding saltwater... Just saying that the conductivity of Saltwater may not have impact on immediate static dispersion directly back to the saltwater that's flowing through it... Lose an electron (becomes slightly positive, though briefly) gain an electron (becomes slightly negative, though briefly again)

The exchange of electrons is electrical current even at a local level... is it sufficient?
I don't know...
However, in zinc cathodic protection, as well as silver cathodic protection, exchange of electrons in the marine environment has shown merit to prevent corrosion... hence another example of eletrons flowing from an area of high concentration to one of lower (the portion that lost the e-)

http://www.srbrowne.com/booklet/page01.html

Sources of Static Generation
The most common generators of static electricity are processes involving flammable liquids. Static electricity is generated by liquids flowing through pipes, and in mixing, pouring, pumping, filtering, or agitating liquids. The rate of generation is influenced by the conductivity of the liquids, the amount of turbulence in the liquid, the interfacial surface area between the liquids and other surfaces, liquid velocity, and the presence of impurities.

Some specific locations where static electricity is generated include:
  • Piping Systems - In piping systems the generation rate and the subsequent accumulation of static charge are a function of the flow rate, liquid velocity, pipe diameter, and pipe length.
  • Filling Operations - The turbulence experienced in filling operations, caused by large flow rates, splashing or free-falling liquids, greatly increases the charge accumulation above the level generated in piping systems.
  • Filtration - Filters, because of their large surface area, can generate as much as 200 times the electrostatic charge generated in the same piping system without filtration.
  • Dispersing Operations - Of all operations in the coatings industry, dispersing operations can be particularly hazardous in view of the extremely high rate of charge generation when particulates are present. With poorly-conductive liquids the charge accumulation can cause hazardous sparking in the vapor space, such as to an exposed agitator blade in a mixer or to a conductive fill pipe. High charge generation rates can also occur when liquids are mixed, thinned, tinted or agitated.
 
That's why I enjoy discussion theories with you, Randy... you have the understanding and the willingness to understand the concepts... and THAT's cool...
 
This next article, written and generalized by Martin Chaplin, references the structure of the water molecule... the hydrogen bonds... how it affects solubility of ions and charged particulate matter in suspension...
http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/water_hydrogen_bonding.html

This next read is for general basis knowledge of water... not for you, Randy... you already know this... that the bond angle between the Hydrogens can increase and decrease based on pressure, energy vibration, and temperature...
http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Textboo...s_and_Liquids/7.3:_Hydrogen-Bonding_and_Water
 
Once again... the theories by themselves hold merit... how these guys attempt to put it all together... I'm not 100% convinced that the claims are valid nor invalid... great science fair project material... great hypothesis... just not much literature on how this device made of black shiny PVC works... maybe with all this discussion, I might make something??? :)
 
FWIW, there are lots of electrical effects of seawater in contact with charged and uncharged surfaces. If a metal in seawater has a charge on it, the seawater will bring up more ions of opposite charge nearer the surface and form an image charge. The nearby water molecules will also partially rotate to be somewhat polarized near the charge.

There may also be transfer of electrons into or out of the the seawater, driving electrochemical reactions, such as most metals do in contact with seawater. That's is why you can run a current from one wire through seawater and out another wire.

None of this, however, has a bearing on the incorrect claim from Reef Toys that relates to their claims about static charge:

"This charging of water re-energizes “water” in a good way. The alignment of water molecules is called polarization. The polarization allows the water to be able to absorb charged organic sludge in the system and creates micro-currents that work in the same manner as static electricity in regards to hair and dust to an electrostatically charged balloon."
 
Once again... the theories by themselves hold merit... how these guys attempt to put it all together... I'm not 100% convinced that the claims are valid nor invalid... great science fair project material... great hypothesis... just not much literature on how this device made of black shiny PVC works... maybe with all this discussion, I might make something??? :)

OK, I accept you believe the ideas have merit.

I think it is marketing material that has no basis in reality.

Again, we'll have to just disagree.
 
Here's an article on detritus in the environment and the humic and fulvic acids (this is in soil studies, but similar in the marine environment)
From the book: Detritus and Decomposition in Ecosystems by Zafar Reshi and Sumira Tyub

upload_2015-8-13_11-30-21.png
 
Here's an article on detritus in the environment and the humic and fulvic acids (this is in soil studies, but similar in the marine environment)
From the book: Detritus and Decomposition in Ecosystems by Zafar Reshi and Sumira Tyub

upload_2015-8-13_11-30-21.png

Many of the organics in seawater, like all of the ions, are charged and will interact with other charged species. I'm not sure what that fact has to do with the P2O reactor or the claims made about it.

I discuss these organics and how they behave in seawater here:

Organic Compounds in the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/rhf/index.htm
 
If the bacterial disinfection only happens locally as you suggested, Randy... then only the bacteria that is in the water column gets affected...

Examples of silver filtration systems by some of the more prominent water purifying companies out there...

http://www.katadyn.com/deen/technical-support/micropur-support/chemical-water-treatment/

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/...8GRC02BTMLTKV3SM5000000_assetId=1180571869220

Here are the reactions I think should be taken into account for anything with silver.... localized or dispersed... the redux of H2S when intereacting with silver plate...
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja01366a005

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_cycle
 
If the bacterial disinfection only happens locally as you suggested, Randy... then only the bacteria that is in the water column gets affected...

Examples of silver filtration systems by some of the more prominent water purifying companies out there...

http://www.katadyn.com/deen/technical-support/micropur-support/chemical-water-treatment/

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/...8GRC02BTMLTKV3SM5000000_assetId=1180571869220

Here are the reactions I think should be taken into account for anything with silver.... localized or dispersed... the redux of H2S when intereacting with silver plate...
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja01366a005

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur_cycle

I'm not sure what you are saying. Bacteria will only die if the come into contact with the silver, either directly or because the silver dissolved into the water.
 
Oh the point I was making was if water is charged (due to movement and flow) it could attain either a slight positive or negative charge... maybe the decomposition of the organics is like dust and are attracted to the hydrogen bonds of the water molecules and other trace elements in solution to the water? The whole theory on dispersion... area of high concentration to an area of low concentration can create an elemental cycle? (ie Nitrogen Cycle, Oxygen Cycle, Sulfur Cycle, etc)

At a pH of between 7.9 to 8.4, it would be assumed that the free H+Ions in solution are less abundant than the other, for simplicity's sake, basic or slightly negative ions in solution. Am I correct in this, Randy?
 
Ahh... such as direct contact or solution such as silver nitrate, silver sulfate, or others...

I'm not sure what you are saying. Bacteria will only die if the come into contact with the silver, either directly or because the silver dissolved into the water.
 
I can see why you got into water chemistry... it's very complex and interesting... there's more to just the Nitrogen Cycle, the Sulfur Cycle, the Hydrogen Cycle, Oxygen Cycle... DOM, DOP, DON...
Did you know that the breakdown of 2 NO3 ---catalyst+energy---> 3 O2 + 1 N2? :) ((((Mind Blown))))

Meaning that the Nitrogen Cycle is in fact linked to the Oxygen Cycle though the classic Oxygen cycle does NOT depict it!
 
Oh the point I was making was if water is charged (due to movement and flow) it could attain either a slight positive or negative charge... maybe the decomposition of the organics is like dust and are attracted to the hydrogen bonds of the water molecules and other trace elements in solution to the water? The whole theory on dispersion... area of high concentration to an area of low concentration can create an elemental cycle? (ie Nitrogen Cycle, Oxygen Cycle, Sulfur Cycle, etc)

At a pH of between 7.9 to 8.4, it would be assumed that the free H+Ions in solution are less abundant than the other, for simplicity's sake, basic or slightly negative ions in solution. Am I correct in this, Randy?

In seawater, the concentration of H+ is about 10-8 M. Sodium and chloride are present at about 0.5 M (50 million times more). So there are LOTS of charges in normal seawater that MUST be nearby any charged part of an organic molecule in seawater. For example, if an organic molecule has a negative charged -Coo- group on it, there will be an excess of positively charged ions such as sodium (relative to negatively charges ones like chloride) hovering very nearby.

These charges don't generally encourage the breakdown of organics, but a charged organic is generally more water soluble than uncharged organics.
 
I can see why you got into water chemistry... it's very complex and interesting... there's more to just the Nitrogen Cycle, the Sulfur Cycle, the Hydrogen Cycle, Oxygen Cycle... DOM, DOP, DON...
Did you know that the breakdown of 2 NO3 ---catalyst+energy---> 3 O2 + 1 N2? :) ((((Mind Blown))))

Meaning that the Nitrogen Cycle is in fact linked to the Oxygen Cycle though the classic Oxygen cycle does NOT depict it!

Most of the time, the biological product is CO2 from the metabolism of organics:

https://www.reef2reef.com/blog/nitrate-in-the-reef-aquarium/

from it:

In the absence of O2, and taking the nitrogen species completely to N2 (which may happen in several reaction steps), we have the following overall reaction:

organic + 124 NO3- + 124 H+ → 122 CO2 + 70 N2 + 208 H2O
 
Agreed... but microbially, can NO3 be broken down and a waste product to be O2 in a anaerobic environment?
 
I don't think this .... "think"deserves all the attention we put on it. Keeping this thread alive is good advertisement of their "product".
 
I know the probability of the following example happening is greater than the redox of NO2/NO3... based on the ratio of N2 in the atmosphere to O2.

Anaerobic ammonia oxidation[edit]
Main article: Ammonia
In this biological process, nitrite and ammonia are converted directly into molecular nitrogen (N2) gas. This process makes up a major proportion of nitrogen conversion in the oceans. The balanced formula for this "anammox" chemical reaction is: NH4+ + NO2- => N2 + 2H2O (ΔG° = -357 kj mol-1).[11]
 

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