Emerald Crabs died

[2012]

Hi,

I bought 2 X emerald crabs, 1 X boxing shrimp & 2 X red legged hermits.

both emeralds died within hours of adding them to tank. My LFS did water tests which were fine, salinity was a bit low so i added some salt before adding the inverts. only the emeralds died. I added 20kg live rock and 10 kg mature live rock. The mature live rock had well over 50 bristle worms which one crab went over to some of them and died but i was out and saw this when i came back. Not sure if they had anything to do with this but the crabs did seems attracted to them and not scared of them, maybe just nothing but the crabs are defo dead and not molts.

could it be my sand bed or not a well cycled tank??
I do think my LFS were too eager to sell me these as i maybe should have just tried one crab first.

as a result i took drastic action as i was very upset these had died, really cool creatures and my best addition.
fearing too many bristle worms i put all rock in the sump with the rest of the inverts and took out the sand bed completely.
i then put the live rock back in main tank, mature rock has been left in my sump and i now have a small patch of sand bed and egg crates to sit the live rock on for now.

i will do more tests tonight.
should i use the sand bed filter with bio pearls to reduce nitrates and phosphates immediately as my LFS said i would not need it until i put in fish??
i now dont trust this LFS and want to put him in my tank so he meets the same fate as my poor emerald crabs.

is it okay to mix live rock and mature live rock??

please help, any info would be great as i do not want this to happen again.
my wife and i were so happy and excited, we went out for an hour and came back to gloom.

after i added salt to increase salinity how long should i have waited for this to settle?? (hours / days??)

thanks all.

 

[2012]

Hi,

Also i was wondering if i should add anything as food for the boxing shrimp and red legged hermits??

thanks

 

[2012]

Hi,

Ok everything is dead. Boxer shrimp, red legged hermits and emerald crabs.

I bought 20 kg live rock and 10kg mature live rock.
the next day i went to LFS and they did water test which came out fine (so they say)
I then bought some livestock which have now all died.

My wife and I are very upset and blamed ourselves.
We now have been told there is NO WAY the LFS should have sold us the livestock as this was way too early.

who agrees / disagrees????

please help so we can go back to LFS and have a good moan.
We feel they should not have sold us the livestock so soon.

after putting in the live rock how long before we should add livestock??

thanks

 

[Rockadile]

seems there is a lot going on here. First how long has this set been setup and how large is the system? Also when you say you bought live rock and mature live rock I am confused as to what the difference is here, it is either live or it isn't. Now your LFS says your water is fine, what exactly are your parameters? Actual numbers help a lo when trying to figure things out. You said your salinity was low so you added salt. What was your SG before you added salt and what is it now? You typically do not add salt directly to your tank and I usually adjust my SG via water changes and slowly if needed.

 

[secretreefer]

Also maybe purchase your own test kits and test yourselves. I only trust myself when doing water testing and if i'm unsure i retest. Possible stray voltage getting in the tank by chance?

 

[2012]

Hi,

PH: 8
Ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
SG: 1.019

SG increased to 1.022 which is when i added the licestock which was the same as the water the livestock came in as i tested this to match the SG.
Please explain to me how to add salt to increase SG without adding directly to tank.

these are from the LFS.
They told me to add some reef salt to the tank before adding the livestock. Test then add the livestock after using drip method which was explained to me.
I had the water in for a week with heaters and protein skimmer working for the week.
Tank is 300 liters (65 gallons) including sump.

live rock was purchased 20 kg cured and 10 kg 'mature' as they called it which was from there display tanks which had livestock in them. ( i paid more for the mature rock).

bristle worms appeared ( i guess from the 'mature live rock') which could not be seen before as they were in the rock. Then well over 50 bristle worms appeared and sat around the sand bed.
The live rocks were placed in the main tank and none in the sump.
After 24 hours i went back to ask when i could add livestock and took a water sample. they stated this would be fine now after water test they did which results are above.
i did nothing else (i did not add a prawn which i now found out about).

slowly everything died. however the zebra hermit crabs came out of there shells quite quickly!!!! 2 of them stayed out of there shells then died.
the boxing shrimp tried hard to stay alive and lasted the longest but not sure how long as sometimes we were not sure whether it was alive or not or if it was moving because of flow.

My wife and I have had a very hard weekend from being so happy to so so sad i cannot explain but i am sure you understand how bad we felt.
We asked other LFS and all 3 stated it was too quick to add livestock and that we should have done weekly tests which cannot be done in a day!!!
One LFS stated we should not have mixed the live rock as this could poison the livestock, this LFS became very upset and we thought he was going to cry
at this point nothing had died and it was our first visit to him so he asked us to explain what we had done etc.
he stated we should have used live rock or mature rock only and allowed for cycling of the tank.
however everyone we have spoken to have been confused about live rock and mature rock stating as you did.
the mature rock had coralline algae and was darker in color than the other cured live rock.
The rock was all Fiji rock.

Before we added any livestock, also a prawn or 3 should have been added for a few days to the tank with live rock.
Then levels should increase then decrease over days/weeks.
We have also been explained that as there was nothing in the tank and the live rock was there for such a short period this did not allow for cycling of the tank and water would test fine as nothing was in the tank for long enough for levels to increase then drop.

Therefore in hindsight we see our mistakes as listening to the LFS so they could get the sale. Other research on forums and the internet with the other LFS conclusions make us believe that the number of people to state the same would be right.

We have since dumped the live rock back to the LFS whom have not refunded but this is the matter of principle and not money.
My tank is empty as we removed the sand bed also.

please, please help.

 

[MadR33fer]

I think the most important question here is how old is the tank?

Did you add your salt mix directly to the tank?

 

[Zoanthkid]

Well as the other lfs have explained, u never had a cycle on your tank. You need to put your rock and sand into the tank and sump, doesn't matter what kind, can be live, "mature", or dry even. Add some sort of biological material. Ammonia, prawn, or if u would have left your rock, sand and dead inverts for a day or 2 that would have gotten things started. This will allow the necessary forms of beneficial bacteria to establish themselves in your sand and rock to be able to convert your ammonia(waste) into less harmful nitrates which still need to be removed via water changes, Bio pellets, etc.... if you aren't too discouraged at this point, start over, do some more reading up on tank cycling here on the forums and take your time!!! That is the #1 most important thing in this hobby, everything takes time. And as far as adjusting salinity, what we are suggesting is that instead of dumping salt into the tank,do a water change with higher salinity water. U need your salt to be good and mixed before good add it to the tank. Good luck and I hope you have better success as this is an amazing hobby with amazing people to meet and learn from.

 

[_sludgefactory]

I'm not trying to be rude here but you really need to do more studying before you go buying stuff. And every time you want to add something you should research it. A week is no where near long enough for the tank to have matured to allow addition of live stock. You should be doing weekly tests to verify that your cycle is moving along properly. There was no reason to remove the sand bed. There is no difference between live rock or mature rock. A good lfs shouldn't be charging a premium because they say the rock is mature. A specific gravity if 1.019 is way to low. Even 1.022 is pretty low. The animals probably went into shock and died sure to hypo salinity. I run mine up at 1.026, a proper level would be somewhere between 1.024 and 1.026. Also you can't blame the lfs for you not doing your research a head if time. They want to make a sell, period. The research falls on your head directly. Would you buy a car fully on what a sales man said? So get them levels up, get some love rock in there. It will end up just like the "mature" rock over time. Get a test kit and find out what the results should be to show how your cycle is going and when your tank is ready. Good luck to you and don't get discouraged, this isn't an easy jump in hobby. Everything takes time but the end rewards are very nice when you put together a really beautiful tank.



Tank thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81000

LG P999 EaglesBlood 2.8, Trinity ELPmax

 

[JackoChang]

Sounds like a lack of research initially, and a shady LFS.
You took the rock back, all of it? Go get some more. I doesn't matter where, although I tend to avoid FL rock because of the hitchhikers. Sounds like you have some info and are ready to start over. You'll need the same setup as initially, minus the livestock. You don't have to use prawn, you can use whatever else to start your cycle. I used a table shrimp. Pick up an ammonia, nitrite, nitrate kits from your LFS/Petco/Petsmart (the API set is a good kit to test for your cycle). After ammonia starts to increase take out the shrimp, then let the tank do it's thing. You might need to ghost feed. I wouldn't run a skimmer while cycling (this seems to be a personal preference though). In a few weeks, you'll have 0 ammonia and nitrites, your nitrates will probably need some work at this point. You'll see a diatom bloom on your rock/sand, possibly algae as well. I would start adding your CUC at this point. Happy Reefing!

 

[_sludgefactory]

Note, if you buy the API kit or tests. Do not trust the water line on the test vials. They are mass produced and screen printed on and not accurate at all. Get your self a 10ml syringe from the drug store. They usually have ones for dosing baby medicine that work well.



Tank thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81000

LG P999 EaglesBlood 2.8, Trinity ELPmax

 

[mallorieGgator]

Hi,

I bought 2 X emerald crabs, 1 X boxing shrimp & 2 X red legged hermits.

both emeralds died within hours of adding them to tank. My LFS did water tests which were fine, salinity was a bit low so i added some salt before adding the inverts. only the emeralds died. I added 20kg live rock and 10 kg mature live rock. The mature live rock had well over 50 bristle worms which one crab went over to some of them and died but i was out and saw this when i came back. Not sure if they had anything to do with this but the crabs did seems attracted to them and not scared of them, maybe just nothing but the crabs are defo dead and not molts.

Ok, how did you add the salt? You should have mixed it seperately, then added it to the tank. So if your salinity was at 1.024 and you want to bump it to 1.026, you'll want to add a salt at a salinity of about 1.027-1.028 and do a 10% WC with the higher salinity salt. Secondly, bristle worms only eat dead things, they are scavengers, so your crabs were dead and the BW ate them to clean up.

could it be my sand bed or not a well cycled tank??
I do think my LFS were too eager to sell me these as i maybe should have just tried one crab first.
How old is the tank? How long has it been cycled? (Ammonia, Nitrites = 0ppm and Nitrates <5ppm)

as a result i took drastic action as i was very upset these had died, really cool creatures and my best addition.
fearing too many bristle worms i put all rock in the sump with the rest of the inverts and took out the sand bed completely.
i then put the live rock back in main tank, mature rock has been left in my sump and i now have a small patch of sand bed and egg crates to sit the live rock on for now.

This was a big mistake. You shouldn't have disturbed your sand bed. It's what keeps your levels correct in your tank. Nitrifying bacteria in the sand bed break ammonia(fish waste) down into nitrite and then into the least toxic by-product, nitrate. By disturbing your new sand bed, you likely caused a massive cycle.

 

[mallorieGgator]

Also this is what you should do:

1- Don't add any livestock- instead purchase these (will save you LOTS of money ): API Reef Tank Master Test Kit Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Reef Master Test Kit
Refractometer (don't cheap out on this)- calibrate it with refractometer calibration fluid(don't use RO/DI water) Marine Depot Aquarium Refractometer
Get an RO/DI unit of your own from Bulk Reef Supply. If you call them, they can get you what you need. DON'T trust your LFS water. It's likely crud.

2- put a sand bed back into the tank. The bristworms are fine. They will die off some as the tank cycles and you don't overfeed.

3- Put your rock- live and dead rock or whatever you are going to use into the tank with the water.

4- Let your tank cycle. Test ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite daily. First you will see a spike in ammonia, then ammonia will drop and nitrite will spike. Finally nitrate will spike and nitrite will drop. You can add stuff when ammonia and nitrite are zero and nitrate is less than 5 ppm. Also, get your salinity to 1.025-1.026 at first. Once it is there you will need to top off your tank daily with fresh RO/DI water. If you have a sump, draw a line where the water level is when the salinity is 1.025-1.026 so you know where to top off to.

5- Once all of this is complete, you can start adding livestock. While your tank cycles (about 2-5 weeks depending on initial die-off) you can do some research on the livestock you want and ask questions about acclimation.

ALSO, to mix salt, get a seprate container. Mix your RO/DI (no tap water please!) and the correct amount of salt to get the salinity where you want it. You will need a power head to mix the salt in the bucket and a heater to mix. A good water change about is 10-12% of your entire tank volume. It will take awhile to get the hang of getting the correct amount of salt and water (unless you're a math wiz like my hubby lol! ).