Emergency power help

[Untamedrose]

Seriously, considering getting a generator for emergency power outages.

I like to get one that for a period of max two weeks... will run the tank, charge say two small household electronics at a time(switching out cells, tablets kinda thing) and will run the fridge/deep freezer(I buy bulk meat losing that would hurt 0o) ...thinking Id plug in the fridge during the day when every ones opening it...and the freezer at night.

And I really dont know what to buy and they seem to range from pretty reasonable in cost to insanely expensive.

I guess gas powered, but have natural gas lines here. Also Not worried about size how tiny it is...I have a clean dry workshop for storage. Budget and it doing what I need it to do are my concerns.

I just need....this range of watts is what you should be getting to run all that.... Cause I'm confused. Any suggestions welcome.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Look at the Honda 2000 watt. Others make a similar style knock off. It the size of a briefcase.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

This one. It's top of the line. There's less expensive one.
http://m.homedepot.com/p/Honda-2-00...gclid=CJXys4DE1s4CFdFefgodPPUGjg&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[redfishbluefish]

Considerations are budget, noise and automation.

If you want automation, you might as well do a whole house deal of 10-15kW. Now don't quote me, because there are a number of factors, but you're looking at 7 to 12 thousand dollars for this option.

Now for portable generators, where you need to be home to fire it up, you can't beat a Honda for low noise.....but they are pricey.


Every other brand of generator that I've seen are noisy. If you don't mind the noise, or can put it a distance from the house, an inexpensive portable is the way to go.

Now as far as what size, you can simply add up the wattage of what you wish to run and then get something in that range. I would guess that you're probably looking for something in the 5000 watt range. Note the the more watts in the generator, the more gas you burn.

We had this little storm hit NJ a couple years ago (named Sandy) that knocked my power out for over seven days. My little generator (Sam's Club, $300), ran 24/7 the entire time, powering my refrigerator/freezer, boiler, my entire tank (90 g DT), television, and a couple lights, without a single problem.

 

[AlexG]

I would also consider a propane generator or tri fuel. In a major power outage gasoline might be hard to find if the entire area is without power.

 

[Defiant Arms]

i have two of the Honda eu1000's and they can be slaved together but one is enough to power a tank easily and they are very quiet and fuel efficient

 

[Salty1962]

This one. It's top of the line. There's less expensive one.
http://m.homedepot.com/p/Honda-2-000-Watt-Super-Quiet-Gasoline-Powered-Portable-Inverter-Generator-with-Eco-Throttle-and-Oil-Alert-EU2000T1A1/206055241?cm_mmc=Shopping|THD|G|0|G-BASE-PLA-D28I-Generators|&gclid=CJXys4DE1s4CFdFefgodPPUGjg&gclsrc=aw.ds

I use a HD generator, it's 2300 watts. Easy one hand crank. Reasonable pricing, has come in handy for power outages.

 

[jsker]

I bought one our generator from Maine Diesel
Look at the Triple fuel
This is the bad boy I ordered, we use it for our business and we run it about 400 hr a year. I have had the generator for 4 years, change the oil every 600 hr and use Amsoil. Had up against the same motor on gasoline and mine was much quieter. Running propane or natural gas, the motor last much longer for the reason they burn clean with less deposits. depending on the load I will burn a 40 ponder or 9.53 gallons in 8 t0 10 Hours.
Here are some more options.

 

[Anthony Wood]

Whatever you buy do not put electronics on a generator unless it's a inverter generator. You may get away with it but your playing Russian roulette with your electronics. The reason being generators unless it's an inverter generator produce "dirty power". AC electric in the United States comes into our houses at 60Hz a perfect sin wave. Generators when they have a changing load and just in general from idling, will disrupt the 60hz and reak havoc on your electronics. Listen to your generator exhaust and how it lopes that's the frequency that's being output, it's not going to be 60hz consistently. If it's even 60Hz at all.

Inverter generators on the other hand, no matter the changing load or idle of the engine will always produce a perfect sin wave at 60Hz. Electronics don't like anything other then a perfect sin wave. If it were me the only thing I would put on a regulater generator would be the heater. I'm not risking burning up a $350 return pump that probably costs half of what the generator costs. I certainly would not put my vortech powerheads, skimmer, lights etc... On anything but a inverter generator. It is not worth the risk to me personally. Things like your fridge or freezer won't be harmed by "dirty electric". Imverter generators are expensive but there is a reason for that. Honda is the only inverter generator I would trust to run the expensive pumps and other electronics on my tank, why risk losing more money in equipment not to mention livestock then the generator is worth.

Before you go saying oh well their are reasonably priced inverter generators. They may say inverter generator that produces a consistent 60Hz but it's not going to be a perfect sin wave. Instead of the graph being a perfect sin wave, the peaks and slopes are flat lines. Do what you must but don't say you weren't not warned haha

 

[Anthony Wood]

Now for the other things mentioned. Propane and natural gas are a much better option then gasoline (they sell conversion kits). It's cleaner and more fuel efficient. If it weren't for the oil going into the cylinders your only exhaust output would be H2O and CO2. If you have generator currently that is super loud a way to make it almost dead silent easily is to add a car muffler to it. Go to the scrap yard pick yourself up the cheapest muffler you can buy something like a Honda muffler. Have a short section of metal pipe tack welded onto the exhaust of your generator then simply attach with hose clamps a flexible metal HVAC pipe from the generator exhaust to the car muffler. You'll have a nearly dead silent generator. Since 99% of cars have more then 100hp (way more then our generators) and a extremely larger exhaust output then the generators a majority of have you'll have zero issues running it this way.

Generator fuel tanks a too small to be run for any length of time so you better figure out a way to expand the tank and hold more fuel and/or have lots of full gas cans ready to refill that gas guzzler. They are also oil guzzlers so keep a close eye on the oil level. Although most newer generator have a low oil fail safe where it'll shut off in the event oil becomes too low. Generators also come with break in oil (high in zinc) for the internal parts that move and rub to wear in correctly. Once you reach the certain amount of hours on your generator that break in oil needs to be changed for normal oil, something to keep in mind.

Also should be noted on here with the ethanol in has now a days you better make sure you run all of the gas out of the carburetor before you store it for any period of time. This should be done ethanol gas or not. That's because there's a float inside the carb and gas that has sit stagnet in the carb for length of time will deposit and clog it. So the next time you go to use the generator you may find out the hard way it's not going to start up. Then you are up crap creek without a paddle unless you have a new carb or carb rebuild kit on hand and are mechanically inclined enough to install it. Since bad things happen at the worst time I wouldn't want to be outside fixing carb issues in the dark with only flashlights.

Forgot to add this into my last post. For the price of inverter generators you might just be better off having a whole house backup generator installed. Obviously only if you own the house and don't plan on moving anytime soon. The price of a Honda inverter generator big enough to run my tank anyways would cost a negligible difference in money to just purchase a whole house generator.

Not sure what size to get? Add up all the watts your going to be hooking up to the generator and that'll be your aim point. It's not just as simple as as that though. When you read say 6000 watt generator that's the peak instant power the generator puts off say when your appliances turn on there's a fraction of a second where the power draw spikes over what the appliance will draw after startup. That 6000 watts that the generator says is there for when stuff turns on and you get that spike. The generator will not run giving out that max 6000watts. You have to look at the RMS wattage that's the real maximum amount of wattage you can put on the generator. So say you have a 6000 watt generator with a 4000 watt RMS. That 4000 watts is what the generator can supply without shutting itself off or blowing a fuse. You plug your stuff in, you get that power surge of 6000 watts but the total wattage your stuff is drawing consistently from the generator is 4100 watts. That generator is going to turn off on you or blow a fuse until you get that power draw to 4000 watts or less.

 

[Syntax1235]

Here's a question regarding back feeding a generator into an exterior outlet.... Not that I would ever do or recommend this.... However....

Would back feeding somehow make the power safer to use from a regular generator?

 

[Brew12]

Here's a question regarding back feeding a generator into an exterior outlet.... Not that I would ever do or recommend this.... However....

Would back feeding somehow make the power safer to use from a regular generator?

No! And please don't ever do this unless you know exactly what you are doing! Electrical linemen can be killed by people backfeeding the grid through their outlets. You may have a 120V generator but if you haven't opened the main breaker in your house that 120V can go back through your utilities transformer and get kicked up to 13,000 volts. Hopefully your generator would trip out as you try to feed the others in the neighborhood but if you are isolated because of storm damage it is very possible to energize a 13kV line from a 120V generator.

 

[Anthony Wood]

Here's a question regarding back feeding a generator into an exterior outlet.... Not that I would ever do or recommend this.... However....

Would back feeding somehow make the power safer to use from a regular generator?

It's not that the power from a generator is unsafe. It's just unless it's an inverter generator the power is "dirty". For everything in the house except your electronics you are good to use "dirty power" unless otherwise noted on the device. The electricity output of your generator is what your going to get no matter how you run the wiring. The only way to get clean electricity would be to get an inverter generator. What the inverter does is convert the incoming dirty AC electric to DC electric then back now clean AC electric at the plug. What you could do is have a battery bank for the necessary pieces of electronics on the tank like powerheads and return pumps. Plug a AC to DC inverter (aka battery charger) into you dirty power generator to keep your batteries charged. For the necessities get a large enough DC to AC inverter hooked to the batteries and plug them into that to power them.

For plugging the portable generater into an external outlet to power the house. I actually looked into that once and can't remember what I came up with it's been so long. That question is best left to a certified electrician who is still actively working in the field and is up to date with what new has come out on the market and the electrical code as mandated by your state or county/township.

DO NOT quote me on this and in no way am I saying this next statement is correct my any measure. But I believe there is a way to have an external outlet for a portable generator wired into the breaker box of the house by a certified electrician that is up to electrical code. The issue that comes into play is safety that's what happens when the house gets power back on and the generator is still running. There has to be a system installed that instantly cuts the power coming into the house from the portable generator. Again that's a question best left for a person well more qualified then myself.

 

[Anthony Wood]

No! And please don't ever do this unless you know exactly what you are doing! Electrical linemen can be killed by people backfeeding the grid through their outlets. You may have a 120V generator but if you haven't opened the main breaker in your house that 120V can go back through your utilities transformer and get kicked up to 13,000 volts. Hopefully your generator would trip out as you try to feed the others in the neighborhood but if you are isolated because of storm damage it is very possible to energize a 13kV line from a 120V generator.

I was waiting for you to chime in! Knew it was only a matter of time. Just out of curiosity is there a way to hook a portable generator up safely so that it feeds the house? I don't want to do this at all I have other safer systems in place until I own my own home and can have a whole house generator. Again out of curiosity, doesn't have to be a long explanation or go into great detail giving people dumb ideas haha

 

[Brew12]

DO NOT quote me on this and in no way am I saying this next statement is correct my any measure. But I believe there is a way to have an external outlet for a portable generator wired into the breaker box of the house by a certified electrician that is up to electrical code. The issue that comes into play is safety that's what happens when the house gets power back on and the generator is still running. There has to be a system installed that instantly cuts the power coming into the house from the portable generator. Again that's a question best left for a person well more qualified then myself.

If you want to hook up a generator to your house wiring system and be code compliant you must use a device that disconnects you from the utility before connecting you to the generator. The cheaper option is a manual set up with 2 input breakers mechanically connected to only allow one at a time to be closed. The utility supply connects to one and the generator supply connects to the other. You may have a 3rd breaker that supplies power from this unit to the house. The more expensive option is an automatic version that starts the generator when it senses a loss of utility power and shifts to the generator when it is ready. Many will also shift back 10 seconds (adjustable) after the utility supply comes back and shuts the generator down automatically.
This is why most solar installations do not supply power when the grid is down. To prevent back feeding a damaged grid it uses the input from the grid to control the solar panels inverter. I think many people who install solar panels or who want them falsely believe that they will help in a power outage. To do that takes takes a much more expensive installation.

 

[Anthony Wood]

If you want to hook up a generator to your house wiring system and be code compliant you must use a device that disconnects you from the utility before connecting you to the generator. The cheaper option is a manual set up with 2 input breakers mechanically connected to only allow one at a time to be closed. The utility supply connects to one and the generator supply connects to the other. You may have a 3rd breaker that supplies power from this unit to the house. The more expensive option is an automatic version that starts the generator when it senses a loss of utility power and shifts to the generator when it is ready. Many will also shift back 10 seconds (adjustable) after the utility supply comes back and shuts the generator down automatically.
This is why most solar installations do not supply power when the grid is down. To prevent back feeding a damaged grid it uses the input from the grid to control the solar panels inverter. I think many people who install solar panels or who want them falsely believe that they will help in a power outage. To do that takes takes a much more expensive installation.

Understood loud and clear. Thank you and appreciate it!

 

[Brew12]

I was waiting for you to chime in! Knew it was only a matter of time. Just out of curiosity is there a way to hook a portable generator up safely so that it feeds the house? I don't want to do this at all I have other safer systems in place until I own my own home and can have a whole house generator. Again out of curiosity, doesn't have to be a long explanation or go into great detail giving people dumb ideas haha

It can be done safely if you understand what you are doing. I use a portable generator to power my house during a long term blackout. I made a special cord to plug the 220V outlet on the generator to 2 designated breakers in my panel. As long as the main breaker in your house is open it is fairly safe to do. I can power everything in my house easily this way other than the oven.

This is even safe for for electronics. The issue with using electronics on a generator has to do with exceeding the demand of the voltage regulator. As long as your generator isn't more than 70% loaded you shouldn't have a problem. You are correct that inverter generators do not have this issue and can safely power electronics at 100% load.

 

[Paul B]

I have a 4500 watt portable generator that runs on gasoline. I bought a conversion unit for less than $200.00 which allows it to run on natural gas. During Hurricane Sandy my power was out for 5 days and there was no gas to be had on Long Island NY. Right after that I converted it to natural gas. It can still run on gasoline which is great if I ever want to take it someplace or lend it to someone. It powers my home with 3 refrigerators, the lights, reef tank and boiler. For many years I just back fed the house through a welding outlet in my garage. (I don't anymore) Of course I shut off the main when I do that but not because I am afraid of shocking a lineman as that will not happen (I will explain that) I also installed a loud bell on my main with a switch on it so that when the power comes back on, the bell rings telling me to shut off my generator.
Now about shocking the lineman. (I also have solar power and that is correct it will not work when the power is out) Shocking the lineman could possibly happen in some remote places but not here in New York. If I tried to run my generator without turning off the main, my generator would try to power all the homes in my neighborhood because it doesn't know enough to stop feeding power past my home. My generator is only capable of supplying 4500 watts and any more than that the circuit breakers on the unit will trip off. My neighbors would be happy if my little generator would power the neighborhood, but it won't. So although I do turn off the main, it is because my generator will not produce any power if I didn't.
If you live in a place and your house is the only thing around, you may shock a lineman. Of course lineman know this so they work as if the circuits are live as I am one. But turn the breaker off anyway.
(Master Electrician in Manhattan 40 years)

 

[Anthony Wood]

It can be done safely if you understand what you are doing. I use a portable generator to power my house during a long term blackout. I made a special cord to plug the 220V outlet on the generator to 2 designated breakers in my panel. As long as the main breaker in your house is open it is fairly safe to do. I can power everything in my house easily this way other than the oven.

This is even safe for for electronics. The issue with using electronics on a generator has to do with exceeding the demand of the voltage regulator. As long as your generator isn't more than 70% loaded you shouldn't have a problem. You are correct that inverter generators do not have this issue and can safely power electronics at 100% load.

I think I Gotcha. The way you have the wiring hooked up is electronic safe. It's not just as simple as taking your expensive return pump or vortech mp40's (mine are on battery backups) and hooking them up to a non inverter generator. If there's nothing else on the generator to fluctuate power draw say a fridge kicking on and off it most likely not going to be a problem. I won't do it personally but hey I'm not the only one reading this.

If I had a long power outage say more then 2 days I have no clue how big of a generator I would need to run everything on my entire system nor do I want the price of that generator. Although everything isn't on just one breaker but non the less the last I checked before adding the light fixtures to my 40g and 55g with everything on all at once I was somewhere well above 16 amps dont remember the total wattage of the tank. My archon controller gives out a amp reading that the tank is drawing. The two things that get me are my 800 watt heater and 6 bulb T5HO ATI Sunpower that also pulls 8 amps. Sorry for getting sidetracked on you.

 

[Brew12]

I think I Gotcha. The way you have the wiring hooked up is electronic safe. It's not just as simple as taking your expensive return pump or vortech mp40's (mine are on battery backups) and hooking them up to a non inverter generator. If there's nothing else on the generator to fluctuate power draw say a fridge kicking on and off it most likely not going to be a problem. I won't do it personally but hey I'm not the only one reading this.

If I had a long power outage say more then 2 days I have no clue how big of a generator I would need to run everything on my entire system nor do I want the price of that generator. Although everything isn't on just one breaker but non the less the last I checked before adding the light fixtures to my 40g and 55g with everything on all at once I was somewhere well above 16 amps dont remember the total wattage of the tank. My archon controller gives out a amp reading that the tank is drawing. The two things that get me are my 800 watt heater and 6 bulb T5HO ATI Sunpower that also pulls 8 amps. Sorry for getting sidetracked on you.

If you had a fridge kicking on and off that could also cause a problem with an inverter generator. It's a different issue when high inductive loads kick on (larger ac motors like a washing machine or fridge compressor). And I would have no problem at all connected a vortex pump directly to the outlet of a non inverter generator. If you think about it, the big utility generators are much more like that portable generator than they are an inverter generator. Almost all electronics are designed to work at both 60hz and 50hz so the rectifiers will maintain fairly stable DC voltages to the components even when the generator bogs down a little. The output of a non inverter generator is actually fairly clean power. The more rectifiers you add as load (which all electronics use) the more chopped the waveform gets due to harmonics. If the load gets too high the generators voltage regulator can no longer maintain a reasonable sine wave. Inverter generators themselves generate this type of chopped sine wave and so they have built in filters to help clean up the signal. Typically, non inverter generators don't have these filters hence the problem at higher electronic loads.

You would probably need a smaller generator than you think. A 3000 watt generator will typically power everything in a 2000 sqft house. The key is that most loads tend to be cyclical. If you started your microwave while brewing coffee and doing laundry you may have an issue. Otherwise, not so much. 15 amps at 120V is around 1800 watts. A 3000 watt generator will handle around 25A.