Emperor Angel sudden death

[Coogzreef]

Ladies and Gentlemen I am at a complete loss. I have bought 3 angels from a LFS and they all survived around 30-45 days in qt and SUDDENLY died I really cannot figure this out. This last one that just passed was eating, breathing and active literally last night. Breathing WAS NOT labored eating like a pig and had already made it through 30 days of copper power at 2.5ppm measured everyday. It had gone through one cycle of prazipro and was due for water change and 2nd dose today. I cannot stress that this fish looked completely fine yesterday besides a little bit of lympho and then overnight just gone. I need advice. Is there something I am missing?

salinity is 1.024
0 ammonia
0 nitrate
0 nitrate
PH 8.1

I am completely stumped.

 

[blaxsun]

After losing my last emperor angel post quarantine (different circumstances), I just opted to stop quarantining all my fish. Over a year later and no deaths (I do run a UV at a higher sterilization/kill rate and an ozone system). Here in Canada we don't have access to the same meds so it's a very costly and convoluted process to QT as well.

Sorry for your loss - hope you're able to figure out what caused it.

 

[Weeb]

Ladies and Gentlemen I am at a complete loss. I have bought 3 angels from a LFS and they all survived around 30-45 days in qt and SUDDENLY died I really cannot figure this out. This last one that just passed was eating, breathing and active literally last night. Breathing WAS NOT labored eating like a pig and had already made it through 30 days of copper power at 2.5ppm measured everyday. It had gone through one cycle of prazipro and was due for water change and 2nd dose today. I cannot stress that this fish looked completely fine yesterday besides a little bit of lympho and then overnight just gone. I need advice. Is there something I am missing?

salinity is 1.024
0 ammonia
0 nitrate
0 nitrate
PH 8.1

I am completely stumped.

Sorry for the loss of this wonderful fish. I raised four from juvenile to full adult markings over the years.

I'm not a fan of treating fish that are not diseased, with copper. It wasn't unusual for some fish stores to automatically keep copper in their systems. So added treatment might be too much. Plus, 30 days of copper treatment? I never went beyond 21 days and that when when it was needed.

You don't mention how they were handled from the bag to the QT.

Hard to say though. An autopsy with microscopic visualization may help identify the cause, but not generally after time, unless the fish are properly preserved.

You might want to take it slower -- just one fish at a time -- in the future.

 

[Coogzreef]

Sorry for the loss of this wonderful fish. I raised four from juvenile to full adult markings over the years.

I'm not a fan of treating fish that are not diseased, with copper. It wasn't unusual for some fish stores to automatically keep copper in their systems. So added treatment might be too much. Plus, 30 days of copper treatment? I never went beyond 21 days and that when when it was needed.

You don't mention how they were handled from the bag to the QT.

Hard to say though. An autopsy with microscopic visualization may help identify the cause, but not generally after time, unless the fish are properly preserved.

You might want to take it slower -- just one fish at a time -- in the future.

This was only 1 fish at a time over months and months of time. I am just getting to the point where i MUST be missing some piece of information that is going wrong. I completely agree with your decision to not treat a fish thats not diseased but adding something to my display that could possibly have something and then everything else getting what that fish had is a risk that I personally do not want to take atm. And to add onto how it was treated in the bag I took it from the fish store and floated for 1 hour and then tested water exactly at the SG and temp of my QT tank so I proceeded to put the fish into the tank. This last fish did not even make it into there system as I took it directly from there shipment.

 

[Weeb]

This was only 1 fish at a time over months and months of time. I am just getting to the point where i MUST be missing some piece of information that is going wrong. I completely agree with your decision to not treat a fish thats not diseased but adding something to my display that could possibly have something and then everything else getting what that fish had is a risk that I personally do not want to take atm.

I see. Sorry. From the original post it sounded like you bought 3 fish together.

Well. . .The point of the QT is to hold fish for observation. Assuming the QT is free of disease at the outset. Most if not all the common diseases manifest within a couple of months. If the fish is okay after that, then it's ready for the main aquarium. Before I put a new fish in the QT I do a FW bath, but that is about all I do going into the QT. I use methylene blue to calm the fish during acclimation.

 

[ninjamyst]

In before qt vs not qt argument ensues....

 

[Joj]

Fhat is frustrating. I dont gamble either and do QT all my fishes after loosing lots of fish due to velvet. Depending in some fishes sensitivity to copper, I QT them from only 2-3 weeks in copper power and observe the rest of the other 2-3 weeks prior to putting in DT.

Didn't see how big your QT tank was. Maybe try a different source than that particular LFS? Is your QT just pvc pipes?

 

[Coogzreef]

Fhat is frustrating. I dont gamble either and do QT all my fishes after loosing lots of fish due to velvet. Depending in some fishes sensitivity to copper, I QT them from only 2-3 weeks in copper power and observe the rest of the other 2-3 weeks prior to putting in DT.

Didn't see how big your QT tank was. Maybe try a different source than that particular LFS? Is your QT just pvc pipes?

I am definitely going to try a different source as i've heard some not so good things about this LFS lately. QT is 30G with just Pvc pipes.

 

[srcleary]

Like Weeb posted, can you share more about your QT process?

What size tank? What size fish?
You mentioned 0 Nitrates but it would be normal to have Nitrates in QT unless you did a 100% water change. How is it zero? What biological filtration?

I have also lost fish in QT very quickly. I do better with larger more stable tanks these days and purchase fish from other clean tanks or QT'd by a reputable seller.

Sorry for your loss but we may need a lot more info to help identify the problem(s). And if they are dying about the same time in the QT process, that may be the biggest clue.

Also it could be the supplier. If they are collecting fish with cyanide then you've lost the battle before even buying them. How reputable is the LFS? Are they offering to replace?

Maybe try ordering from a reputable dealer and put in QT for observation purposes only before going into your display. I have had good success with Diver's Den and School of Fish.

I love Emperors. I have both a large adult and gorgeous orange tail juvenile in my DT. The large adult rules the tank of 50+ fish. Don't give up but maybe change suppliers and the QT process.

 

[Coogzreef]

Like Weeb posted, can you share more about your QT process?

What size tank? What size fish?
You mentioned 0 Nitrates but it would be normal to have Nitrates in QT unless you did a 100% water change. How is it zero? What biological filtration?

I have also lost fish in QT very quickly. I do better with larger more stable tanks these days and purchase fish from other clean tanks or QT'd by a reputable seller.

Sorry for your loss but we may need a lot more info to help identify the problem(s). And if they are dying about the same time in the QT process, that may be the biggest clue.

Also it could be the supplier. If they are collecting fish with cyanide then you've lost the battle before even buying them. How reputable is the LFS? Are they offering to replace?

Maybe try ordering from a reputable dealer and put in QT for observation purposes only before going into your display. I have had good success with Diver's Den and School of Fish.

I love Emperors. I have both a large adult and gorgeous orange tail juvenile in my DT. The large adult rules the tank of 50+ fish. Don't give up but maybe change suppliers and the QT process.

QT tank 30gallons. Fish was Juvenile about 3-4 inches. I did about a 90% water change after the 30 days of copper so thats why nitrates were near undetectable. I did this water change to get the copper out and then wait a week and dose prazi. About the Cyanide collected this is a piece of information that I recently got that this perticular LFS gets alot of Cyanide collected fish so this was one of the thoughts that I had about why there dying. They are not offering to replace. I am giving Dr reefs Quarantine a try I have two observation tanks and have ordered 3 fish from him. Emperor is by far my favorite fish so if this works out with Dr Reef I will most likely go with ordering from him for now on.

 

[LPS Bum]

Ladies and Gentlemen I am at a complete loss. I have bought 3 angels from a LFS and they all survived around 30-45 days in qt and SUDDENLY died I really cannot figure this out. This last one that just passed was eating, breathing and active literally last night. Breathing WAS NOT labored eating like a pig and had already made it through 30 days of copper power at 2.5ppm measured everyday. It had gone through one cycle of prazipro and was due for water change and 2nd dose today. I cannot stress that this fish looked completely fine yesterday besides a little bit of lympho and then overnight just gone. I need advice. Is there something I am missing?

salinity is 1.024
0 ammonia
0 nitrate
0 nitrate
PH 8.1

I am completely stumped.

Very sorry to hear that. It’s really frustrating to lose fish.

I always QT my fish for 30 days, but I’ve stopped treating them prophylacticly with copper. As in I don’t medicate until I see a reason to do so (Crypt, Velvet, etc).

Copper is hard on Pomacanthus Angels. I’ve had a lot of success using this method with my 8 large Angels, including an Emperor. Just a thought…

 

[srcleary]

QT tank 30gallons. Fish was Juvenile about 3-4 inches. I did about a 90% water change after the 30 days of copper so thats why nitrates were near undetectable. I did this water change to get the copper out and then wait a week and dose prazi. About the Cyanide collected this is a piece of information that I recently got that this perticular LFS gets alot of Cyanide collected fish so this was one of the thoughts that I had about why there dying. They are not offering to replace. I am giving Dr reefs Quarantine a try I have two observation tanks and have ordered 3 fish from him. Emperor is by far my favorite fish so if this works out with Dr Reef I will most likely go with ordering from him for now on.

Great! I have ordered from Dr. Reef with hit and miss. More misses unfortunately, but they were going through a difficult time. School of Fish is my favorite go-to but their online prices are a bit more than their store prices and they are an easy drive for me. But I know the owner will give discounts when he can. And he has always stood behind his fish.

I have ordered from NY Aquatics but I always call and ask about the fish and how long in QT and such before purchasing.

I usually remove the copper more slowly. A 90% water change can also be rough on the fish. I hold mine to no more than 30-33% at a time. If I have to change a lot of water fast I just do 1/3rd a day until I am where I need to be.

But it sounds like the cyanide could be the problem. It is a quick killer for sure. I believe I was victim to this more than once until I started only buying from a few select suppliers.

Good luck!

 

[Coogzreef]

Great! I have ordered from Dr. Reef with hit and miss. More misses unfortunately, but they were going through a difficult time. School of Fish is my favorite go-to but their online prices are a bit more than their store prices and they are an easy drive for me. But I know the owner will give discounts when he can. And he has always stood behind his fish.

I have ordered from NY Aquatics but I always call and ask about the fish and how long in QT and such before purchasing.

I usually remove the copper more slowly. A 90% water change can also be rough on the fish. I hold mine to no more than 30-33% at a time. If I have to change a lot of water fast I just do 1/3rd a day until I am where I need to be.

But it sounds like the cyanide could be the problem. It is a quick killer for sure. I believe I was victim to this more than once until I started only buying from a few select suppliers.

Good luck!

What misses did you encounter?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Ladies and Gentlemen I am at a complete loss. I have bought 3 angels from a LFS and they all survived around 30-45 days in qt and SUDDENLY died I really cannot figure this out. This last one that just passed was eating, breathing and active literally last night. Breathing WAS NOT labored eating like a pig and had already made it through 30 days of copper power at 2.5ppm measured everyday. It had gone through one cycle of prazipro and was due for water change and 2nd dose today. I cannot stress that this fish looked completely fine yesterday besides a little bit of lympho and then overnight just gone. I need advice. Is there something I am missing?

salinity is 1.024
0 ammonia
0 nitrate
0 nitrate
PH 8.1

I am completely stumped.

Answering your other thread- again , either find out where the fish are coming from (fiji, phillipines, etc) and also buy from a different LFS as a test to see if a different supplier to that LFS has stronger stock.
On your nitrate and ammonia readings at zero- what test kits are you using ?
Prazi does lower O2 a little not to say a contributor.

 

[Coogzreef]

Answering your other thread- again , either find out where the fish are coming from (fiji, phillipines, etc) and also buy from a different LFS as a test to see if a different supplier to that LFS has stronger stock.
On your nitrate and ammonia readings at zero- what test kits are you using ?
Prazi does lower O2 a little not to say a contributor.

Yes sorry to move the thread just figured maybe someone else ran into the problem so public would be better. I use red sea master test kit for Ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, ph, and alk. For salinity I use Hannah's digital reader. I ALSO have a seachem badge in every tank I own just to use as another source.

 

[srcleary]

What misses did you encounter?

I lost a clown trigger and it was on death's doorstep when it arrived. Died two days later. They should have never shipped it. They offered to replace but neither of us ever followed up.

I don't remember some of the others but I remember them being on the thin side. I have some that I bought (I only did one large purchase) but lost most. Some were my fault as they got eaten by larger fish!

I've come to the place I don't like losing fish anymore. Now I'd rather pay more and have fat and healthy fish. I also like fish being re-homed from stable tanks.

The ones I bought from Dr Reef just didn't seem as healthy as fish I now acquire for other dealers. I did have an Ich problem but not sure where it came from. I was buying from too many different places. I treated all the fish, only buy from select people, and haven't had any issue in nearly a year. And with 55 fish in my DT. 74 fish total.

But honestly I don't want to over criticize Dr. Reef as I am sure they are wanting to deliver high quality and I only purchased once. But again, it was a large order.

I also like The Reef Corner.

 

[Coogzreef]

I lost a clown trigger and it was on death's doorstep when it arrived. Died two days later. They should have never shipped it. They offered to replace but neither of us ever followed up.

I don't remember some of the others but I remember them being on the thin side. I have some that I bought (I only did one large purchase) but lost most. Some were my fault as they got eaten by larger fish!

I've come to the place I don't like losing fish anymore. Now I'd rather pay more and have fat and healthy fish. I also like fish being re-homed from stable tanks.

The ones I bought from Dr Reef just didn't seem as healthy as fish I now acquire for other dealers. I did have an Ich problem but not sure where it came from. I was buying from too many different places. I treated all the fish, only buy from select people, and haven't had any issue in nearly a year. And with 55 fish in my DT. 74 fish total.

But honestly I don't want to over criticize Dr. Reef as I am sure they are wanting to deliver high quality and I only purchased once. But again, it was a large order.

I also like The Reef Corner.

Thanks for the replies I'll have to look around I am definitely in your boat I dont want to lose any fish and do not mind at all paying a premium for premium quality.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Ladies and Gentlemen I am at a complete loss. I have bought 3 angels from a LFS and they all survived around 30-45 days in qt and SUDDENLY died I really cannot figure this out. This last one that just passed was eating, breathing and active literally last night. Breathing WAS NOT labored eating like a pig and had already made it through 30 days of copper power at 2.5ppm measured everyday. It had gone through one cycle of prazipro and was due for water change and 2nd dose today. I cannot stress that this fish looked completely fine yesterday besides a little bit of lympho and then overnight just gone. I need advice. Is there something I am missing?

salinity is 1.024
0 ammonia
0 nitrate
0 nitrate
PH 8.1

I am completely stumped.

I know I've been helping you on the other thread, but what were the other angel species again?
These were all in different quarantine runs or the same?
Have other fish gone through your process with the angels, and did they do o.k.?

Copper Power and Coppersafe get unjustifiably blamed for a lot of fish mortality. I've run literally thousands of fish through Coppersafe since circa 1980 with no issues at all. Why does it get a bad rap? Because many things can kill a fish during quarantine, and copper is often used, so gets blamed. Ionic copper medications are another story.

Chloroquine is a non-copper alternative for protozoan diseases, but I've stopped using that due to unexpected fish losses with lionfish and wrasses.

Jay

 

[MnFish1]

QT tank 30gallons. Fish was Juvenile about 3-4 inches. I did about a 90% water change after the 30 days of copper so thats why nitrates were near undetectable. I did this water change to get the copper out and then wait a week and dose prazi. About the Cyanide collected this is a piece of information that I recently got that this perticular LFS gets alot of Cyanide collected fish so this was one of the thoughts that I had about why there dying. They are not offering to replace. I am giving Dr reefs Quarantine a try I have two observation tanks and have ordered 3 fish from him. Emperor is by far my favorite fish so if this works out with Dr Reef I will most likely go with ordering from him for now on.

As others have said - Its almost impossible to tell what happened without a clear inciting event. However - if your LFS says that they have a lot of cyanide-caught fish - this would be the right timetable for a sudden death from cyanide. I don't see any obvious problems with your methods.

 

[Coogzreef]

I know I've been helping you on the other thread, but what were the other angel species again?
These were all in different quarantine runs or the same?
Have other fish gone through your process with the angels, and did they do o.k.?

Copper Power and Coppersafe get unjustifiably blamed for a lot of fish mortality. I've run literally thousands of fish through Coppersafe since circa 1980 with no issues at all. Why does it get a bad rap? Because many things can kill a fish during quarantine, and copper is often used, so gets blamed. Ionic copper medications are another story.

Chloroquine is a non-copper alternative for protozoan diseases, but I've stopped using that due to unexpected fish losses with lionfish and wrasses.

Jay

Hey jay this time around was a lemon peel angel and the emperor and I’ve ran my same qt method with clowns and a tang and they did perfect I would note though that the fish the did go through my same process we’re not from that LFS.