Endless Cycle

[jimfish98]

I set up my 25g system on 9/23 and dosed it with Microbactor's starter. I added ammonia the next day to get the tank to 2ppm. The system has run and after about 10 days the ammonia finally dropped to zero. My nitrite spiked as expected, however it has yet to drop. I have completed multiple water changes in an effort to bring it back down, however the levels do not adjust after the water change. I have been stuck around 2ppm Nitrite for two weeks now. While I understand a slight delay due to it being bare bottom, I have plenty of Caribsea Life Rock and my rear chamber has a full box of Marine Pure spheres. There should be more than enough surface area to start seeing a good conversion to nitrate. I have never had a bare bottom FW system take even half as much time to cycle. Am I missing something?

 

[Ben.QLD2]

Missing patience, and possibly bacterial diversity. I like to mix a few brands together because the cultures are often different.

Go to your LFS and buy some rubble from the bottom of their live rock tank.

It's only been 4 weeks though.

 

[Lavey29]

Nitrite is irrelevant in a salt tank. If you show zero ammonia and good readable nitrates numbers the tank is cycled.

 

[jimfish98]

Missing patience, and possibly bacterial diversity. I like to mix a few brands together because the cultures are often different.

Go to your LFS and buy some rubble from the bottom of their live rock tank.

It's only been 4 weeks though.

I added Dr Tim's last week to boost bio and diversity. Wouldn't add someone else's unknown rock to my system with isolation first, would just add time.

 

[jimfish98]

Nitrite is irrelevant in a salt tank. If you show zero ammonia and good readable nitrates numbers the tank is cycled.

Curious...If it is not relevant, why do all of our starter bacteria stuff note to wait for it to hit 0 before you consider the tank cycled?

 

[Lavey29]

Curious...If it is not relevant, why do all of our starter bacteria stuff note to wait for it to hit 0 before you consider the tank cycled?

It's relevant for fresh water not salt. I've never tested for nitrites in a reef tank because they do not harm livestock in salt tank. There's 2 things that show your tank is ready. If you dose ammonia and 24 hours or less later it reads 0 and if your tank is showing good nitrate production. That means your nitrifying cycle is working properly.

 

[resortez]

Curious to know if you have a light cycle. I like to run lights for long periods of time when starting a new system, get through the ugly face quick & push through the simple single cell organisms & into more complex beneficial bacterias. The algae is my to go sign that the tank is ready for more complex life.

 

[jimfish98]

Curious to know if you have a light cycle. I like to run lights for long periods of time when starting a new system, get through the ugly face quick & push through the simple single cell organisms & into more complex beneficial bacterias. The algae is my to go sign that the tank is ready for more complex life.

I have been running lights the whole time. Running a Hydra 32 at 100% with UV, V, RY, and B all at 80%. G and R at 8%. CW at 15%. Lights turn on at 8am to 6pm with one hour ramp and and wind down included in that time. No real uglies to date, few tiny algae strands here and there if you squint enough and look.

 

[Lavey29]

Curious to know if you have a light cycle. I like to run lights for long periods of time when starting a new system, get through the ugly face quick & push through the simple single cell organisms & into more complex beneficial bacterias. The algae is my to go sign that the tank is ready for more complex life.

I left my lights off the first 4 months to let the tank develop biodiversity and microfauna before light and coral were added. I had a very minimal and manageable ugly phase consisting of diatoms for 2 weeks followed a few months later by some GHA. Tank evolved quite well with this method.

 

[resortez]

Yea, definitely something is not clicking. Should be producing some algae. Try feeding some flakes or frozen to give it a push into NO3s. Can you share your system setup?

 

[Lavey29]

I'm not sure he has even tested for nitrate yet . He only states testing for nitrites.

 

[jimfish98]

I'm not sure he has even tested for nitrate yet . He only states testing for nitrites.

Hovering around 5ppm of Nitrate as long as I have been stalled with the nitrites.

 

[brandon429]

why do all of our starter bacteria stuff note to wait for it to hit 0 before you consider the tank cycled?


here’s the logic flow:

A bottle bac maker writes the rules that buyers use for reef cycling


reef cycler tests and gets high nitrite, buys more bottle bac over and over since nitrite drop didn’t match ammonia drop - it’s not supposed to, see cycling chart, ammonia is day ten nitrite is day thirty IF the api tester is accurate, who says it will be?

cycle rules writer gets richer. Pretty simple

have a scientist with a seneye study who does not sell bottle bac write the rules on stalling. Nothing we do stops ammonia control in a common reef cycle, and ammonia control is all that matters.

once we get a scientist with no sales income on the line + a new MACNA talk, this false sales loop ends.


the final insult to the hobby: by misleading reefers on the nature of stalled cycled, the bottle bac maker misleads all cyclers into a hyperfocus on two parameters and no discussion of fish disease is ever, ever, ever, ever mentioned and that’s where all loss in reef cycling happens.

all of us here can go search out the absolute most updated cycling science written for the hobby and there’s no mention of disease protocols not one bit. By training folks to hyper focus on parameters that don’t matter a massive sales motivation is created and millions of hobby fish are killed within a few months of setup *well after the cycler waited extra time and bought those extra bottles of bacteria***


the fish still died anyway and they followed the rules the podium talk said to do with nitrite to a T


I cannot find one example of a bottle bac cycle failing to carry any animal the keeper put in the tank, reef cycles don’t stall or we’d have twenty examples of that we can find.



cycle stalling is the biggest false sales prop this hobby has seen in a long time. Fish disease from skipping preps is the sole risk in a cycle attempt, ammonia control will be fine by day ten in every arrangement Ive seen that used bottle bac at the start.



I have never seen an attempted reef tank cycle fail, not one, though the rule writer makes us think this happens daily.

ALL stalled cycle threads we can search out are tanks carrying fish fine and either a Red Sea or an api kit causing panic.

 

[brandon429]

You mentioned algae strands

by rule of benthic visual cuing that alone confirms your cycle is done given no testing at all. It’s not possible to have rocks underwater long enough to have algae, cyano, diatoms or any other benthic organism and not be completely cycled for ammonia control


why isn’t that rule told to us from a podium at MACNA

because that rule doesn’t sell anything.

what I want from the next MACNA podium speaker on cycling:


-no cycle stalls evidenced by all threads on stalling where any animal in the tank is just fine. A stalled cycle can’t control ammonia and the animals die and we can see them dying without anyone’s test kit for any parameter. Living fish for weeks on end means the opposite of a stuck cycle, it means a working cycle is in place.

-rules on visual cycle verification using benthic cue markers

-statement that fish disease is the sole, #1 and exclusive worry for reefers during a cycle and that no degree of waiting can make up for the need for specific fish disease preps.

-a statement on how the ammonia line on a cycle chart is correct, and a statement analysis on # of posts showing inflated sales of bottle bacteria based on nitrite rules but zero change in the loss rate from fish disease no matter how one cycles, fast or slow. I want the speaker to relate these last ten year’s hobby focus on nitrite control back to the ability or inability to lessen the rates of fish disease within eight months after tank setup.

they should end the paid talk with: a reef tank is NOT safe for fish after you’ve waited long enough for api to show zero on the two core parameters. Your tank is safe for fish once you apply humblefish disease prep protocols, nitrite has no bearing on reef tank cycling and if you consider it during your cycle it will be to the exclusion of all disease preps required.

 

[brandon429]

here is someone getting ripped off by old cycling science, multi bottle bac purchase due to the rules bottle bac sellers gave us

Cycle not lowering ammonia levels.

Looking for advice on lowering ammonia in my 30 Gal tank with one Clownfish. Two months ago I tried a fishless cycle with live rock. All my levels were low, ammonia was at zero and nitrate levels were there, but not high. I thought it was cycled and added the clownfish. A month later ammonia...

www.reef2reef.com

they have been telling that aquarist that the ammonia line on a cycling chart is to be doubted. it isn't to be. watch the cycle verification unfold live time via tank pics.