Escaping Old Tank Syndrome

[C-Reefer]

I just had a thought... it may be stupid, but old tank syndrome happens when the small amount of elements start building up when we don't do large water changes, right? So, to escape this, should I set a schedule to do a large - 50% or more water change every 6 months? Or, mabye more often. Of course, you could always send in a Triton test but, this may be cheaper. Is it harmful to the livestock? Corals, fish, inverts, ect.

 

[Mandelstam]

I think every action you do should be an informed decision based on actual data, not just general water changes done blindly. And I know many successful reefs that hasn't had a water change in years.

 

[brandon429]

It’s very hard for the masses to be able to control OTS because of dilution and how that changes the pace of ecosystem degradation tank to tank, most people who make inferences about OTS have huge systems that already run numerous offsets for the condition anyway


A hands off 180 destined for OTS still takes a decade to show it and would look great in year 5-7 for example though it’s storing up mass that will eventually shift the system to a eutrophic state, scientific definition of OTS

The secret to controlling OTS lies in pico and nano reef studies where it doesn’t take ten yrs to show the effects of waste compounding and live rocks being plugged up with detritus.

What a large tanker thinks about OTS is polar opposite of what a pico reefer thinks about it when their system uses zero offsets and we can simply see detritus as a cause

Large water changes and sandbeds that do not cloud at all bc they’re kept so clean is exactly how pico reefers have beaten old tank syndrome. There is no lifespan to how long a system can live when it’s kept clean, in an oligotrophic state.

*many smaller tank keepers might not do 100% changes, but they’re doing sandbed cleaning in some form (or no sandbed) which is the biggest need anyway and they still have a water change repertoire that is consistent. Either way, the oldest smaller tanks are simply kept clean or low on detritus


For the hands off reefing mode, constant storage in a sandbed mode that we were all taught was ideal, we can easily see the lifespan on those systems in the CONSTANT full tank invasion posts that litter the internet or by reading how a given old tank still uses nine offsets for the waste packed into that filthy bed.

True understanding of OTS comes from running and documenting systems that have no such offsets, then the impact of detritus becomes totally apparent


OTS is 1000% beatable it is a detritus condition and a bacterial imbalance that comes from packing and storing diaper waste in a delicate reef system. To prevent it, change the diaper no fancy dosers or new bacterial strains required, a system will run forever without OTS given those conditions.

Paul Bs fifty year tank is a measure in OTS and myriad offsets it takes to get that old in a larger system, everything he does including diatom filtering, RUGF, constantly refreshing pods from the ocean, the e20yrs full take down bed cleaning, the ATS system in place, all of it is detritus mgmnt even if he’s about to disagree with me

 

[brandon429]

Old tank syndrome was the old gate keeper against pico reefers who used to store up waste thinking if one cleaned a system, they destabilized it. That’s why in searching the entire internet and written history of pico reefs nobody can find a five year old system running before 2005, they all crashed long before mo 60 and they smelled like it too

As soon as we got bio permission to clean those filthy beds, lifespans went limitless we show and enduring invasions stopped (for pico reefers anyway)

OTS= detritus and pore clogging effects from detritus, which is interesting in that OTS locus is not in the water it’s in the substrate, rocks n sand. An ideal way to intricately know OTS is to keep reef systems that use no offsets for protein storage and degradation in the system, and not make them huge diluted systems.

Make a test system small enough it'll reveal OTS in ten months, learn to manipulate OTS using modeling before risking a twenty thousand dollar reef on it/ fun practice

Doing big water changes alone isn’t helping prevent OTS, how we manage rocks and sand porosity determines its course and for once I'll not say in my opinion...ill state it as fact with undeniable repeatable testable documented proof.

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/detritus-is-it-as-bad-as-some-make-out.300047/


If any of the tanks in that thread didn’t have over a hundred gallons of dilution or weren’t already using offsets for stored waste the outcomes would be very different, they’d be in the throes of OTS.

 

[Reefin Dude]

Cool, it is great to see that reefing may finally be getting out of the dark ages of the early 2000's.

G~

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

Really good info shared here already! Thanks @brandon429!

 

[shred5]

I just had a thought... it may be stupid, but old tank syndrome happens when the small amount of elements start building up when we don't do large water changes, right? So, to escape this, should I set a schedule to do a large - 50% or more water change every 6 months? Or, mabye more often. Of course, you could always send in a Triton test but, this may be cheaper. Is it harmful to the livestock? Corals, fish, inverts, ect.

Several Authors think old tank syndrome is due to heavy metal build up.. I have had several conversation with Ron Shimek on this and I tend to agree. Some of them will bind and release after a while.

Nothing wrong with water changes. How many people have said their tank look better after a water change? I think this hobby has been around long enough to have that proof. How many people who say they do not do water changes are actually telling the truth or how long, how long do there tank actually last? 5 years, 10 years? Go back and search at those that say they do not and 90 percent are gone and no longer post why is that? I know people who have tried and usually around the 1.5 and 2 year mark things start to go south some make it farther. Problem is once these things are bound and start to release back into the water it is hard to stop.

Lets put it this way we put all this stuff in our stem it eventually has to go somewhere. I mean it really does not need proof it is common sense. We have metal parts that rust, there is copper in food, plastics that leach stuff in the water especially now with all this Chinese stuff we use. These test do not test for everything like coral and algae allelopathy and they do not even know how to. We have a different group of people in the hobby and most do not last long, heck most do not even grow colonies any more. many look like frag tanks. Things get repeated enough it becomes fact. Ask anyone in the hobby that has been in the hobby 25 years they will tell you water changes are good. It comes from experience.


Until we test for everything and we have evidence everything can be kept or removed at safe limits I think water changes are good. We are starting to see products that remove heavy metals so maybe some day we can remove other things too. I just do not think we are there yet, we keep to many different things in our tanks that are trying to war with each other.

 

[madweazl]

How old does a tank need to be to suffer from it? I think OTS is a fancy term for I'm too lazy to do anything to my tank and it crashed syndrome. I had a 40g that was home to a reef for 12 years. It had a skimmer but no sump. I would vacuum the crushed coral substrate occasionally but did nothing else out of the norm (water changes every month or so). I didnt have any SPS but didnt have any issues with the LPS or crocea clam.

 

[Reefin Dude]

still trying to blame metals.

about as long as it takes for a substrate to no longer be able to migrate detritus downward. becomes full. clogging the flow of easily available C.

G~

 

[shred5]

How old does a tank need to be to suffer from it? I think OTS is a fancy term for I'm too lazy to do anything to my tank and it crashed syndrome. I had a 40g that was home to a reef for 12 years. It had a skimmer but no sump. I would vacuum the crushed coral substrate occasionally but did nothing else out of the norm (water changes every month or so). I didnt have any SPS but didnt have any issues with the LPS or crocea clam.

Absolutely not. I Have been in the reef hobby over 30 years. I have know tanks that were 20 years old and these people took really good care and then the tank declined for no reason.. I think the time frame has to do with how well you took care of it. I think it has has to do with other factors than just heavy metals, it is just one of the things we test for.

It is hard now a days really to have good data for anything. When I started the hobby most of the people are still in the hobby that I knew, a few took breaks. The last ten years most do not make it 5 years and some with some spectacular tanks to. The others usually upgrade often or downsize etc. When is the last time anyone saw a tank 15 to 20 years old. If you do it usually is a old salt. Also most do not even let corals grow to maturity, they look like frag tanks. Why not just set up a frag tank.

 

[Livinlocal]

Following so I could read this later

 

[Sallstrom]

I don't see why there is a reason to use the term OTS. If a tank crash, there is something wrong and it doesn't matter if the tank is 2 or 12 years.

My guess is also that many of these crashes has to do with how the tank is run. Nowadays we have ICP tests for example, and they will tell if something is leaking Cu or Zn etc.

And here's a tank that has been running since 2005(at my work).

 

[C-Reefer]

Keeping your sand bed clean and rocks clean makes a lot of sense. My reef is still very young, only 2 months, but I do 2 gallon water changes every week, and vacuum sand bed and blow out rocks every water change. However, I think there is still merit to be had in the discussion that metals cause it. If you think about it, as @shred5 says, our equipment, as it detiorates, which even the best will do, has to go somewhere. And if you do small water changes, your never going to do anything to get those nutrients out. A 10% water will dilute it by 10%, which is negiligible. I think mabye combining both, doing a large - 75% water change once a year to basically restart your system, and then keeping everything clean may be a good practice.

 

[Scott Campbell]

It’s very hard for the masses to be able to control OTS because of dilution and how that changes the pace of ecosystem degradation tank to tank, most people who make inferences about OTS have huge systems that already run numerous offsets for the condition anyway


A hands off 180 destined for OTS still takes a decade to show it and would look great in year 5-7 for example though it’s storing up mass that will eventually shift the system to a eutrophic state, scientific definition of OTS

The secret to controlling OTS lies in pico and nano reef studies where it doesn’t take ten yrs to show the effects of waste compounding and live rocks being plugged up with detritus.

What a large tanker thinks about OTS is polar opposite of what a pico reefer thinks about it when their system uses zero offsets and we can simply see detritus as a cause

Large water changes and sandbeds that do not cloud at all bc they’re kept so clean is exactly how pico reefers have beaten old tank syndrome. There is no lifespan to how long a system can live when it’s kept clean, in an oligotrophic state.

*many smaller tank keepers might not do 100% changes, but they’re doing sandbed cleaning in some form (or no sandbed) which is the biggest need anyway and they still have a water change repertoire that is consistent. Either way, the oldest smaller tanks are simply kept clean or low on detritus


For the hands off reefing mode, constant storage in a sandbed mode that we were all taught was ideal, we can easily see the lifespan on those systems in the CONSTANT full tank invasion posts that litter the internet or by reading how a given old tank still uses nine offsets for the waste packed into that filthy bed.

True understanding of OTS comes from running and documenting systems that have no such offsets, then the impact of detritus becomes totally apparent


OTS is 1000% beatable it is a detritus condition and a bacterial imbalance that comes from packing and storing diaper waste in a delicate reef system. To prevent it, change the diaper no fancy dosers or new bacterial strains required, a system will run forever without OTS given those conditions.

Paul Bs fifty year tank is a measure in OTS and myriad offsets it takes to get that old in a larger system, everything he does including diatom filtering, RUGF, constantly refreshing pods from the ocean, the e20yrs full take down bed cleaning, the ATS system in place, all of it is detritus mgmnt even if he’s about to disagree with me

You speak of "offsets" as if they are a bad thing. Aren't the water changes, filter socks, substrate siphoning, rock cleaning, detritus siphoning and all the other mechanisms you recommend just different types of "offsets"? Why are Paul's offsets bad and your offsets good?

We all deal with waste export in different ways. Nano aquariums probably have fewer viable export options compared to larger systems. And it is likely a tank owner will need to be more actively involved to keep a small system stable. But that doesn't prove anything about detritus. I have not seen any evidence offered that detritus in a tank is harmful if there is a healthy microfauna population available to feed on the detritus.

 

[Reefin Dude]

look at the marine energy pyramid. P is energy. as one goes down the food chain the amount of P necessary to support the level above goes up. in order to have an increase in producers, there must also be an increase in P, or any of their resources, but it is easier to focus on P. the more benthos the more P necessary to support the benthos. where is the P from, but from the detritus. if the detritus were to not be there, then the benthos population would crash, would it not?

to not touch a substrate is not natural. it should be cleaned on a regular basis to maintain resources necessary to support the benthos if so inclined. detritus will choke out the benthos. limiting resources to the very bottom producers the bacteria. siphon stir the substrate on a regular basis, how often that is is up to you, but doing so will refresh the process. this process happens all of the time in nature. normal wave action affects substrates deeper than what we have in our systems (in the biotopes we try to emulate). it seems strange to me to think that we should not also be trying to emulate this in our systems.

G~

 

[shred5]

look at the marine energy pyramid. P is energy. as one goes down the food chain the amount of P necessary to support the level above goes up. in order to have an increase in producers, there must also be an increase in P, or any of their resources, but it is easier to focus on P. the more benthos the more P necessary to support the benthos. where is the P from, but from the detritus. if the detritus were to not be there, then the benthos population would crash, would it not?

to not touch a substrate is not natural. it should be cleaned on a regular basis to maintain resources necessary to support the benthos if so inclined. detritus will choke out the benthos. limiting resources to the very bottom producers the bacteria. siphon stir the substrate on a regular basis, how often that is is up to you, but doing so will refresh the process. this process happens all of the time in nature. normal wave action affects substrates deeper than what we have in our systems (in the biotopes we try to emulate). it seems strange to me to think that we should not also be trying to emulate this in our systems.

G~

Geoff This is you isn't it?

 

[beaslbob]

I just had a thought... it may be stupid, but old tank syndrome happens when the small amount of elements start building up when we don't do large water changes, right? So, to escape this, should I set a schedule to do a large - 50% or more water change every 6 months? Or, mabye more often. Of course, you could always send in a Triton test but, this may be cheaper. Is it harmful to the livestock? Corals, fish, inverts, ect.

IMHO old tank syndrome is an artifact of relying on water changes and/or Deep Sea Beds.

To me what is important is to balance out and stabilize the system with algae like macros so you have a balanced stable ecosystem that relies only on aerobic bacteria and the plant action. and to dose things which get depleted like calcium, alk and magnesium.

Search paul_b's 40 years old+tank. He only does a couple or three water changes a year. Hard to argue with 40 years+ of success.

But that just me and my .02

 

[shred5]

IMHO old tank syndrome is an artifact of relying on water changes and/or Deep Sea Beds.

To me what is important is to balance out and stabilize the system with algae like macros so you have a balanced stable ecosystem that relies only on aerobic bacteria and the plant action. and to dose things which get depleted like calcium, alk and magnesium.

Search paul_b's 40 years old+tank. He only does a couple or three water changes a year. Hard to argue with 40 years+ of success.

But that just me and my .02

What about those who had bare bottom?. I have know people who did that still had this happen.. Nicest reef tank I ever saw back in the day and one of the first real sps tanks.. You really only hear about old tank syndrome back in the day because people do not keep a tank long enough now. Back then bare-bottom was standard before Ron Shimek start the fad. And before bare bottom was crushed coral.

but then again I have seem people with DSB for 20 years also.

 

[brandon429]

agreed Scott

I was pointing out that those offsets are how we deal with degrading proteins in the system and that as soon as they're capped off in the sandbed, inaccessible, the sands of time begin and range in eutrophication degree and duration tank to tank in many ways independent of how the top water is managed...I guess 100% water changes might stave off eutrophication indefinitely but in larger tanks that's a no go. they'll partial water change and go stagnant depending on tank volume and other factors.


Pauls offsets are awesome, I just can't get him to clearly state that storing detritus is a risk though I see bigtime work on his old tank to get detritus out. his writing confuses me a little, it wouldn't if he simply wrote "the reason my tank is fifty years old is due to how I manage detritus and its impacts"

for sure, undeniably, the reason my gallon sps/lps reef is 12 is due to how I manage detritus and its impacts.