ESV 2 Part vs TM All For Reef

[FrugalReefer]

 

[Tuan’s Reef]

Just really depends. Are you complementing ESV with trace elements to make it fair?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Both methods are good choices.

ESV can raise pH while the AFR will not.

You may want to consider a trace element mix with the ESV since it does not add trace elements against organism depletion, while the AFR tries to do that.

With AFR, you may need alk and calcium solutions on hand in case your tank does not use alk and calcium in the ratio provided, and if demand is low (such as in a soft coral tank), you may want to use a trace element mix with AFR as well.

 

[Tuan’s Reef]

If you like simplicity get All for Reef. If you are like me and love to tinker and be in control , ESV all day long.

 

[FrugalReefer]

Both ESV 2 Part and TM All For Reef have trace elements.

 

[Tuan’s Reef]

Both ESV 2 Part and TM All For Reef have trace elements.

I used ESV in the past and always supplemented with trace. Do you have a link of the specific ESV 2 part that have trace elements? I thought they did not contain any trace elements.

 

[ScottB]

Both ESV 2 Part and TM All For Reef have trace elements.

I use buckets of ESV. Literally. The label does say it provides the necessary trace elements, and my ICPs always come back within ranges for trace (except Iodine). Oddly, the ingredient list doesn't specifically mention any trace elements. But whatever, it does the job.

 

[FrugalReefer]

I’m currently using ESV 2 Part and the back labels of both bottles show the trace element information. I was formerly using All For Reef with my current nano reef but a few months ago there was a problem with a shipment of it and I never received the package of AFR. I couldn’t wait for another order so I picked up some ESV 2 Part from my LFS. I’ve been using ESV for cal/alk/mag supplementation for a few months but now I’m thinking about switching back to AFR for simplicity if anything. I don’t know now though because I like how my tank’s been responding to the ESV and how it helps with my pH. This is the reason I started this thread.

 

[FrugalReefer]

Both methods are good choices.

ESV can raise pH while the AFR will not.

You may want to consider a trace element mix with the ESV since it does not add trace elements against organism depletion, while the AFR tries to do that.

With AFR, you may need alk and calcium solutions on hand in case your tank does not use alk and calcium in the ratio provided, and if demand is low (such as in a soft coral tank), you may want to use a trace element mix with AFR as well.

Both methods are good choices.

ESV can raise pH while the AFR will not.

You may want to consider a trace element mix with the ESV since it does not add trace elements against organism depletion, while the AFR tries to do that.

With AFR, you may need alk and calcium solutions on hand in case your tank does not use alk and calcium in the ratio provided, and if demand is low (such as in a soft coral tank), you may want to use a trace element mix with AFR as well.

Both methods are good choices.

ESV can raise pH while the AFR will not.

You may want to consider a trace element mix with the ESV since it does not add trace elements against organism depletion, while the AFR tries to do that.

With AFR, you may need alk and calcium solutions on hand in case your tank does not use alk and calcium in the ratio provided, and if demand is low (such as in a soft coral tank), you may want to use a trace element mix with AFR as well.

Interesting. So no matter how much AFR is used to bring up alkalinity pH will not rise?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Both ESV 2 Part and TM All For Reef have trace elements.

Yes and no.

Yes, they both have them, but no, the ESV product does not supplement them against any loss from organism consumption.

It's a little bit complicated, but the ESV product, if designed and used exactly as directed and claimed, may contain a trace element, but may also serve to actually lower that trace element due to needed corrections for the salinity rise.

Here's how that works:

The Many Methods for Supplementing Calcium and Alkalinity - REEFEDITION

There is no aspect of reef aquarium chemistry more important than calcium and alkalinity. Many of my previous articles have described various aspects of these systems in detail. In reading those articles, aquarists will note one pervasive theme: that maintaining appropriate levels of each are...

www.reefedition.com

from it:

One issue that has confused some reef keepers, however, is the presence of trace elements. Assuming that these products are actually formulated with every ion such that a true natural seawater residue remained (let’s call this the “ideal” product), then it will necessarily contain such ions as copper. Since copper is elevated in some reef tanks, and is toxic to many invertebrates, reef keepers have wrongly criticized this method as adding more copper. That’s actually not what would happen. Since these products leave a natural seawater residue, and since copper may be elevated in concentration in many reef tanks relative to seawater, then using these “ideal” products will actually LOWER copper levels because when the increase in salinity is corrected, the copper will drop.

For example:

You have copper in your aquarium at 4 ppb and salinity of S=35.

You add a two part additive that over the course of a month raises salinity to S=36, and raises copper to 4.02 ppb.

Then you correct the salinity back to S=35 by diluting everything in the tank with fresh water, and you get a final copper concentration of 3.9 ppb.

Does this happen in real products and not “ideal” products? I have no idea. But the statement by manufacturers that it contains all ions in natural ratios, including copper, should not be viewed as a concern that it is exacerbating a heavy metal problem.

The rise in salinity of these products over time can be very roughly calculated, though there are several reasons why this calculation is only an estimate. For every 1000 meq of alkalinity added in this fashion (and the matching amount of calcium) these products will deliver on the order of 60 grams of other ions to the tank. In a tank with a low calcification demand (defined later to be 18.3 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100 gallon tank (0.4 dKH/day)) this effect will raise the salinity by 3 ppt per year (compared to a normal salinity of S ~35). In a high demand tank (defined later to be 219 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100 gallon tank (4.4 dKH/day)), the salinity will rise by 35 ppt in a year, or approximately doubling the salinity. Consequently, the salinity should be monitored closely in using these types of additives, especially in a tank with high calcification rates.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

"Interesting. So no matter how much AFR is used to bring up alkalinity pH will not rise?"

There are two effects to consider.

pH is fixed mathematically by alkalinity and CO2 level in the water.

One is the pH that comes when dosing. That effect is a rise or fall in CO2 level. AFR has no instantaneous pH boost when dosed in any amount, unlike carbonate or hydroxide products, such as the original ESV two part, which consume some CO2 and boost pH instantly.

The other pH effect has to do with the actual alk maintained, regardless of how you got there. Higher alk always tends to produce higher pH, regardless of the dosing used (or none at all). A lot of AFR will, over a period of time, raise alk, and that raised alk will tend to drive the system to a higher pH.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I use buckets of ESV. Literally. The label does say it provides the necessary trace elements,

I think that is a misinterpretation of what they actually say. They do not claim to add necessary trace elements in necessary amounts to offset growth consumption.

What ESV does, aside from adding alk and calcium, is exactly the same as a very tiny water change each day with natural seawater.

"In addition to supplying highly concentrated calcium and carbonate alkalinity required for calcification, B-Ionic Calcium Buffer System is also formulated to provide all other important major, minor, and trace elements in the proper ratios to duplicate the composition of synthetic seawater. As a result, B-Ionic Calcium Buffer System will help restore inorganic ions lost from protein skimming and help maintain the ionic balance of your aquarium water."

Note that such a claim is very different than saying it adds what is consumed by organisms.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

But whatever, it does the job.

It, plus foods and anything else you add.

Remember, foods add large amounts of trace elements. The end result cannot be attributed to any individual thing done.

 

[Tiatank]

Both methods are good choices.

ESV can raise pH while the AFR will not.

You may want to consider a trace element mix with the ESV since it does not add trace elements against organism depletion, while the AFR tries to do that.

With AFR, you may need alk and calcium solutions on hand in case your tank does not use alk and calcium in the ratio provided, and if demand is low (such as in a soft coral tank), you may want to use a trace element mix with AFR as well.

Hi Randy was wondering if I can dose b-ionic with AFR, been using B-ionic forever and supplementing trace elements regularly As per the icp test. Because I have one doser left on the versa I was thinking of adding AFR and see if it keeps up with the trace element depletion while not affecting my parameters, as long as the two different types of calciums can be dosed together. Thanks

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hi Randy was wondering if I can dose b-ionic with AFR, been using B-ionic forever and supplementing trace elements regularly As per the icp test. Because I have one doser left on the versa I was thinking of adding AFR and see if it keeps up with the trace element depletion while not affecting my parameters, as long as the two different types of calciums can be dosed together. Thanks

Using them together is perfectly fine, just don't combine any parts outside the tank. Especially don't put the alk part of ESV into AFR or you will precipitate calcium carbonate. I do not know if you can put AFR into the calcium part of ESV. That might be OK.

 

[Tiatank]

Using them together is perfectly fine, just don't combine any parts outside the tank. Especially don't put the alk part of ESV into AFR or you will precipitate calcium carbonate. I do not know if you can put AFR into the calcium part of ESV. That might be OK.

Perfect thank you, i certainly won’t combine. My thought is if I’m dosing 20ml Alk, 20ml cal and 60ml mag, I will start with 5ml of AFR and check with icp in a couple months to see if the trace elements are being replenished. This would save Some time not having to manually dose a bit of this that and the other.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Perfect thank you, i certainly won’t combine. My thought is if I’m dosing 20ml Alk, 20ml cal and 60ml mag, I will start with 5ml of AFR and check with icp in a couple months to see if the trace elements are being replenished. This would save Some time not having to manually dose a bit of this that and the other.

60 mL magnesium? Why and what product? Sounds very excessive. Both ESV and AFR already have magnesium in them.

 

[Tiatank]

60 mL magnesium? Why and what product? Sounds very excessive. Both ESV and AFR already have magnesium in them.

I’ve been dosing a little extra mag to bump it up to 1350 from 1200 instead of just dosing a couple big doses( prefer to go slow on things) I would imagine once I start dosing AFR I can start lowering the mag.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I’ve been dosing a little extra mag to bump it up to 1350 from 1200 instead of just dosing a couple big doses( prefer to go slow on things) I would imagine once I start dosing AFR I can start lowering the mag.

At 1200 ppm, I'd guess it is more likely test error or low salinity than actual low magnesium at 35 ppt.

Might be time for RMM lol

Just say NO to magnesium testing: RMM is born

OK, this thread has been many years in the making, and I'm posting it here since folks in the chem forum are probably already tired of all the threads relating to problematic magnesium testing. I'm going to propose a method, let's call it the Randy Magnesium Method, or RMM for short. All good...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Tiatank]

At 1200 ppm, I'd guess it is more likely test error or low salinity than actual low magnesium at 35 ppt.

Might be time for RMM lol

Just say NO to magnesium testing: RMM is born

OK, this thread has been many years in the making, and I'm posting it here since folks in the chem forum are probably already tired of all the threads relating to problematic magnesium testing. I'm going to propose a method, let's call it the Randy Magnesium Method, or RMM for short. All good...

www.reef2reef.com

Lol thanks